Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 3)

[fmaderjr]

Does anyone have experience running the M-10 with DSM's?  I'm assuming LINE in and sensitivity to LOW??

According to guysonic, the M10's plug in power perfectly powers his DSM mics. If yours have a 1/8 plug, just go mic in without using his battery box. He generally recommends using the M10's low sensitivity setting for all mic in situations and no matter what mics you are using (although high sensitivity seems to be fine for ambient recordings).

By the way, if you go line in, the Low/High sensitivity switch has no effect.

[aaronji]

I'm guessing your preference for recording hot is because you grew up with analogue equipment, but it makes absolutely no sense with digital. All you're achieving by recording too hot is a clipped signal.

It can make sense sometimes.  If you are recording something with a very broad range of dynamics, you run the risk of screwing up the quietest parts if you're not sending enough juice to the recorder in an effort to keep your peaks low...

[Geissler]

That's true enough. Not sure how true it is that 24bit allows you to boost quiet signals much more cleanly. I usually aim to peak at around -6.

[Artstar]

It's quite true given the amount of dynamic range that buys you over 16 bit. That said, it all hinges on whatever has the highest noise floor, whether it's your recorder's ADC bit resolution or any analogue component leading up to it (including the mics themselves). Then again, if you're going to be recording something so widely varied like that, then your aim of -6dBFS peak levels is indeed reasonable and I would expect excellent results from that. My preference for -12dBFS is largely attributed to the fact that I record loud rock and jazz gigs which can have the odd startling burst of volume. If I were to attend something like a symphony orchestra, then by all means I'd increase my nominal peak to -6dBFS, as well, knowing that the volumes won't be as punishing and the premium venue will have nothing less than a premium sound guy at the mixing desk.

[aaronji]

^^^ Not exactly what I meant.  I actually had a specific experience in mind, where I had the recorder at unity (or thereabouts) and was reducing the pre-amp gain to keep the levels on the recorder at -12 dBFS (something I had read here).  The quietest parts (essentially Dave King rubbing a wood-tipped stick on a cymbal) was completely silent at points.  (I think) I reduced the voltage coming out of the pre below the recorder input's minimum...

No doubt 24 bit is great, and allows more conservative levels settings, but after that experience I have been trying to peak between -6 and -3 dB rather than -12 dB...

[Artstar]

That's fair enough. I should've been more mindful to reiterate that the performance you're recording should dictate how conservative you need to be and I was stuck in a rock performance mindset. That's my bad.

So my recommendation for rock/heavy jazz: -12dBFS; funk/light jazz: -6dBFS. That should still be sufficient for something as low level as you described to still be recorded and if anything, salvageable through a little added expansion in the bottom end of the dynamic compression curve. If you really want to push it, then you could aim for -3dBFS and use the limiter but I don't like the idea of having a master recording that is harder to salvage than what it would have been if it were recorded a little more conservatively.

If in your case you reduced it below the recorder's minimum input voltage, then no degree of bit resolution would've saved you there but then again, I've recorded some light jazz gigs peaking at -12dBFS with no problems picking up the light side tapping of cymbals which were more like pin drops and that was on my old Sony MZ-R50 beast back in the day. It may have been that the mics simply weren't sensitive enough to that kind of SPL? At the end of the day, it's a matter of determining which is the weakest link in your chain, do some test recordings at home long before recording out in the field and that way, you should be well prepared for it. Practice makes perfect.

[groovon]

^^^ Not exactly what I meant.  I actually had a specific experience in mind, where I had the recorder at unity (or thereabouts) and was reducing the pre-amp gain to keep the levels on the recorder at -12 dBFS (something I had read here).  The quietest parts (essentially Dave King rubbing a wood-tipped stick on a cymbal) was completely silent at points.  (I think) I reduced the voltage coming out of the pre below the recorder input's minimum...

No doubt 24 bit is great, and allows more conservative levels settings, but after that experience I have been trying to peak between -6 and -3 dB rather than -12 dB...

I think I agree with you. Recording jazz combos close-in at 24/44.1 I'm setting levels at around -6dB, maybe -8dB, 'average'. By that, I mean 80% or more of the time the meter indicates around -6dB.
Then when, say, a snare hit 'peaks' it will get very close to 0dB, even hit 0 momentarily (it's inaudible as I believe the meter reads high). So my average levels are as 'hot' as possible (yes, old analog guy here, too).
The few times I've reduced input levels to -12dB in order to leave more headroom, the dynamics on playback were considerably lacking. At a -6dB 'average' reading the little Sony really knocks me out. Of course that is with my particular use, YMMV.
cheers
Dave

[fmaderjr]

The few times I've reduced input levels to -12dB in order to leave more headroom, the dynamics on playback were considerably lacking. At a -6dB 'average' reading the little Sony really knocks me out. Of course that is with my particular use, YMMV.

This may be true if you want to be able to listen to the unedited files using the M10 as a player. It should not be the case if you edit the files and boost the levels before doing any critical listening. I certainly have no problem with the dynamics of my recordings after editing, even if I needed to boost the recordings 12 or (rarely) even 20 dB.

[groovon]

The few times I've reduced input levels to -12dB in order to leave more headroom, the dynamics on playback were considerably lacking. At a -6dB 'average' reading the little Sony really knocks me out. Of course that is with my particular use, YMMV.

This may be true if you want to be able to listen to the unedited files using the M10 as a player. It should not be the case if you edit the files and boost the levels before doing any critical listening. I certainly have no problem with the dynamics of my recordings after editing, even if I needed to boost the recordings 12 or (rarely) even 20 dB.

As long as you don't sense any fidelity loss after editing and normalizing, boosting levels. I couldn't be quite sure, however, and my ears always prefer the straight recording to be as close as possible the the desired end result. I do go through software, but don't 100% trust it(!) Again, I'm an old analog guy, and still think of getting the 'sound to tape'.
cheers!

[fmaderjr]

Well, whatever works for you and makes you happy with your recordings is the way to go. Especially since you've apparently learned how to peak pretty close to 0 without distorting. I don't think I'd be able to do that, so aiming for -12 dB gives me peace of mind.

[guysonic]

What I do is put a right-angle plug in the unit, then about 6" of wire to a female minijack.

I made one of these from a hardwired right angle plug (from a set of AT829 mics), just cut it and added a jack.
You could probably get Chris Church to make you a cable like this.
Oh yeah, you could glue-tape that thing to the Sony case if you like
Richard

thanx
I think I could easily make one of these but I'd then put a mini XLR on the end of the cable to ensure a locking connection. As the small 1/8 plugs twist and in my experience that is where connection issues occur.
Hot glue can be removed -but I'd hate to glue it  to a brand new unit... I can easily make a custom right angle plug.

--Ian

Posts suggesting keeping connectors clean should be followed as good advice.  See my tips page for details for doing this at
www.sonicstudios.com/tips.htm#maintain

Posts suggesting making your own right-angle plugs should also be considered.   Here at Sonic Studios I custom mold all such plugs directly to the equipment cord using custom hard gold-over-nickel metal inserts.  Same as used in the jack extension product pictured below:

[groovon]

Well, whatever works for you and makes you happy with your recordings is the way to go. Especially since you've apparently learned how to peak pretty close to 0 without distorting. I don't think I'd be able to do that, so aiming for -12 dB gives me peace of mind.

In this particular situation it seems to work out pretty well, but you do have a point - there can 'unexpected occurences' (snare hits, usually, in this case).

PS - I take it you're not talking about -12dB 'peaks', but -12dB 'average' levels?

cheers
Dave

[kleiner Rainer]

guysonic,

are you serious about your "jack extension cable"? From an EMC point of view, this is catastropic. If I can see exposed wires through the clear plastic you use, electromagnetic disturbances can see them also. Since nearly everybody now carries a cellphone, this is a real problem!

I am not kidding. I do EMC assessment and tests at work, and I have experience with recordings done in strong electromagnetic fields. Since I record steam trains, I have to live with 15kV/ 16 2/3 Hz catenaries only a few meters from my recording gear. You can bet that the combination of millivolt levels of audio and 15kV AC will expose any shielding problems seconds after switching on your gear!

The solutions I found by trial and error (I don't have a 15 kV catenary in my lab...) are those:

- avoid cheap plastic connectors and ready-made cables, especially the low-cost ones with 3.5mm connectors. The best ist just good enough. I use Neutrik: NTP3RC-B is a 90 degree, all-metal 3.5mm stereo connector with thick gold plating, a die cast housing and a strain relief that deserves this name. The price is right, I pay 3.80 Euro at www.reichelt.de . If you are short of cash, use NEUTRIK NYS231BG (Euro 1.20). Still all-metal and gold plated, but not right angle and not as solid.
The biggest problem is getting good, reliable 3.5mm jacks. Sadly, Neutrik does not make them.

- use the cable with the thickest braided shield you can get. In unbalanced connections, hum and noise enters the recorder via voltage drop along the microphone cable. See here: http://audiosystemsgroup.com/AES-RFI-SF08.pdf , especially Page 76 ff.

- When building adapter boxes, avoid plastic. Use die-cast boxes (Hammond, Eddystone, Bopla).

- check shield resistance from end to end of your cable. Strive for a resistance that is as low as possible.

- keep your connectors clean. Care for them.

This should result in good, undisturbed recordings without hum or noise.

Greetings,

Rainer

[fmaderjr]

I take it you're not talking about -12dB 'peaks', but -12dB 'average' levels?
cheers
Dave

I mean I aim for the most frequent the peaks hitting around -12 dB and occasional ones maybe hitting -6 or a bit higher. I never even think if average levels (unless you consider average levels to be where the most frequent peaks are hitting).

[groovon]

I take it you're not talking about -12dB 'peaks', but -12dB 'average' levels?
cheers
Dave

I mean I aim for the most frequent the peaks hitting around -12 dB and occasional ones maybe hitting -6 or a bit higher. I never even think if average levels (unless you consider average levels to be where the most frequent peaks are hitting).

I'm a bit confused as to your use of the term 'peaks'. What would you say your meter shows 'most (say, 80%) of the time' during a performance? I think of that as the 'average' level (i.e what VU meters used to indicate).

Terminology aside (Average/RMS/Peak levels, blah blah), we're in agreement that 0dBFS should be avoided (though I swear I've had times when a loud snare whack reached that level and I never heard any objectionable artifacts result from it. Which makes me think maybe my meters are exagerrating.)

(edit) I see that the SMPTE standard reference level for 24-bit audio is -20dBFS. Maybe I can afford to bring my levels down a bit!

8>)
Dave