Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 3)

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Since I record steam trains, I have to live with 15kV/ 16 2/3 Hz catenaries only a few meters from my recording gear. You can bet that the combination of millivolt levels of audio and 15kV AC will expose any shielding problems seconds after switching on your gear!

That is definitely a difficult case, and a great situation to optimize shielding!

[Artstar]

And in such a case, replacing the existing connector on the mics with a Neutrik right angle plug (as I did after my old CSB mics developed a little break about an inch away from the old straight plug) is wiser as you are throwing less connections within the chain, less points where problems can develop and you're not paying USD$25 for it, which I consider to be an unreasonable amount for what doesn't appear to be a quality cable to me. Sorry Guy, that's just my view.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

And in such a case, replacing the existing connector on the mics with a Neutrik right angle plug (as I did after my old CSB mics developed a little break about an inch away from the old straight plug) is wiser as you are throwing less connections within the chain, less points where problems can develop and you're not paying USD$25 for it, which I consider to be an unreasonable amount for what doesn't appear to be a quality cable to me. Sorry Guy, that's just my view.

Apples and oranges.  That neutrik connector has a reallllllyy long tail on it, and with that a tendency to leverage a great deal of strain on the jack.  In some cases RA plugs can be more straining than straight plugs.

[Artstar]

If you truly believe all of what you just said, then you need to reassess the way you handle your equipment. I see no reason why any undue stress should be placed on the connector with a connector that has a lower profile (ie. a right angled plug) unless you are pressing it up against something that would not occur naturally.

[groovon]

If you truly believe all of what you just said, then you need to reassess the way you handle your equipment. I see no reason why any undue stress should be placed on the connector with a connector that has a lower profile (ie. a right angled plug) unless you are pressing it up against something that would not occur naturally.

Well, exactly what you describe does occur 'naturally', just casually holding the M-10! As freelunch says, a RA connector with a relatively long and/or rigid strain relief 'tail', when inadvertently pressed on, will act as a lever and put significant mechanical stress on the plug and jack.

Unless the cable/strain-relief is sitting hard on the deck surface (perhaps taped there, with a rubber block underneath to support it), or else the RA plug and it's strain relief is short and the cable very supple, such as the ones I've made (also available for $25, including shipping... just kidding Guy!) 8>)

So I see what Guy is trying to achieve with the short RA plug, but I agree with Artstar's second point about the additional socket - one mickey-mouse jack is bad enough. (I've often thought of hard-wiring an input cable through the jack-hole to the PCB many times, but so far haven't bothered.)

Dave

[Artstar]

So what you're saying is that you're gripping the unit from the top with your hand over the connector? That's what I meant by reassessing the way the unit is being handled. Furthermore, the tail on that particular Neutrik connector doesn't even come close to the left or right edges of the unit and I should know since I use such plugs with my M10. I do apologise if I come across as condescending (as I gathered in hindsight) but I honestly don't agree with the strain argument that was put forward. Let's face it, nothing is impervious to stress or strain but if you're mindful of what you're doing, where you're standing or leaning against, then you will have no problem. As such, anything which does end up placing undue strain will not be because you didn't stand the right way or anything. It will be because you leaned or bumped against something which is typically out of the ordinary, perhaps even a flying roundhouse kick to the guts if you had it on your belt like I do. Heheh.

But seriously though, for 12 years with a straight plug and 2 years with a right angled plug without any issues, I must be doing something right when handling my gear and even in a slightly pushy crowd.

[groovon]

So what you're saying is that you're gripping the unit from the top with your hand over the connector? That's what I meant by reassessing the way the unit is being handled. Furthermore, the tail on that particular Neutrik connector doesn't even come close to the left or right edges of the unit and I should know since I use such plugs with my M10. I do apologise if I come across as condescending (as I gathered in hindsight) but I honestly don't agree with the strain argument that was put forward. Let's face it, nothing is impervious to stress or strain but if you're mindful of what you're doing, where you're standing or leaning against, then you will have no problem. As such, anything which does end up placing undue strain will not be because you didn't stand the right way or anything. It will be because you leaned or bumped against something which is typically out of the ordinary, perhaps even a flying roundhouse kick to the guts if you had it on your belt like I do. Heheh.

But seriously though, for 12 years with a straight plug and 2 years with a right angled plug without any issues, I must be doing something right when handling my gear and even in a slightly pushy crowd.

If your connector of choice doesn't cause a problem for you, that's great.

I happen to not like any bigger a connector or stiffer cable than necessary on such a small jack, so I made up a compact RA plug fitted with a very supple cable (Mogami balanced lapel mic cable), which puts absolutely zero strain on the jack. Pulling on the cable doesn't even rotate the plug, let alone strain the plug or contacts, so I don't have to worry about shoving it into a pocket, grabbing the unit whichever way, etc.
cheers
Dave

[guysonic]

guysonic,

are you serious about your "jack extension cable"? From an EMC point of view, this is catastropic. If I can see exposed wires through the clear plastic you use, electromagnetic disturbances can see them also. Since nearly everybody now carries a cellphone, this is a real problem!

I am not kidding. I do EMC assessment and tests at work, and I have experience with recordings done in strong electromagnetic fields. Since I record steam trains, I have to live with 15kV/ 16 2/3 Hz catenaries only a few meters from my recording gear. You can bet that the combination of millivolt levels of audio and 15kV AC will expose any shielding problems seconds after switching on your gear!

The solutions I found by trial and error (I don't have a 15 kV catenary in my lab...) are those:

- avoid cheap plastic connectors and ready-made cables, especially the low-cost ones with 3.5mm connectors. The best ist just good enough. I use Neutrik: NTP3RC-B is a 90 degree, all-metal 3.5mm stereo connector with thick gold plating, a die cast housing and a strain relief that deserves this name. The price is right, I pay 3.80 Euro at www.reichelt.de . If you are short of cash, use NEUTRIK NYS231BG (Euro 1.20). Still all-metal and gold plated, but not right angle and not as solid.
The biggest problem is getting good, reliable 3.5mm jacks. Sadly, Neutrik does not make them.

- use the cable with the thickest braided shield you can get. In unbalanced connections, hum and noise enters the recorder via voltage drop along the microphone cable. See here: http://audiosystemsgroup.com/AES-RFI-SF08.pdf , especially Page 76 ff.

- When building adapter boxes, avoid plastic. Use die-cast boxes (Hammond, Eddystone, Bopla).

- check shield resistance from end to end of your cable. Strive for a resistance that is as low as possible.

- keep your connectors clean. Care for them.

This should result in good, undisturbed recordings without hum or noise.

Greetings,

Rainer

Plastic molding has not been a problem in 25 years of using this type of construction with low impedance very low level microphone signals. 

Operated mics with this type of plug within several feet of over 1 million volt Tesla coils with no audible electrical noise issues. 

Problem with Neutrik right-angle plug is the long heavy strain relief puts way too much leverage stress on jacks making it just as damaging as straight plugs.  So not suggested as any kind of solution for keeping jacks in good shape with common field use.

[groovon]

I'm with Guy on this one. Adding overbuilt shield/shell and strain relief monstrosities onto the inadequate 1/8" mickey mouse plug solves nothing - it's just blind 'engineering' with no regard to result. The problem here is not even cable strain relief, but elimination of strain altogether on the tiny plug and socket - which IMO is best done by using the smallest profile plug body and the most flexible cable possible.

In the case of someone habitually recording around ultra high-powered electromagnetic fields... is the Sony unit itself (plastic case etc) appropriately shielded anyway? A serious setup might be inside an anti-EMF mesh enclosure, and better not rely on 1/8" consumer-grade mini/mickey mouse plugs, either.

/ just my two brain cell's worth 

[it-goes-to-eleven]

In the case of someone habitually recording around ultra high-powered electromagnetic fields... is the Sony unit itself (plastic case etc) appropriately shielded anyway? A serious setup might be inside an anti-EMF mesh enclosure, and better not rely on 1/8" consumer-grade mini/mickey mouse plugs, either.

I had the same concerns about the case shielding.   The internal shielding is often partial.

[groovon]

In the case of someone habitually recording around ultra high-powered electromagnetic fields... is the Sony unit itself (plastic case etc) appropriately shielded anyway? A serious setup might be inside an anti-EMF mesh enclosure, and better not rely on 1/8" consumer-grade mini/mickey mouse plugs, either.

I had the same concerns about the case shielding.   The internal shielding is often partial.

Hi FL - In my last paragraph I was actually responding to kleiner Rainer's earlier post, where he brought up an extreme example of EMF interference. I don't have any concerns about that at all under my usual recording conditions, though I guess others might.
cheers
Dave

[buffalofloyd]

I'm not sure this is the best place to ask this question but here it goes anyway. I just ordered this recorder along with CA-CAFS and a CA-UGLY. I have a Roger Waters concert on the 8th of october. Unfortunately I won't be able to test this new equipment before the show. Can anyone recommend some settings for me to use? Ill be recording 24/48 and i assume from what i have read that ill need to use the line in input. The venue is in an arena seating approximately 18k. Thanks in advance.

Jim

[Idle Wind]

For an example of the M10's internal mics, check this Stanton Moore show
I recorded Tuesday.

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=538879

I originally thought I would get a patch from one of the big rigs, but didn't bother.  I ended up right at the stage, dfc right before the second set.  The M10 was in my pocket so I said, hey, why not......

turned the thing on, set the meters once, put it on the stage between Stanton and Will Bernard.  it came out remarkably well for internal mics..  it was really close to the stage monitors, which had been used for Anders Osborne in the first set, but were now pumping out a lot of bass from Wil Blades' B3 - still, it's not muddy or saturated.  In retrospect, I might have tried the low-pass filter, but I think it's fine as it is.

enjoy.

[buffalofloyd]

hmm... does nobody have any suggestions for me and the setup ill have?

[gmm6797]

hmm... does nobody have any suggestions for me and the setup ill have?

read all three threads on the Sony and other threads on here related to your mics