Gear / Technical Help > Recording Gear

Recording My Own Band & Other Projects

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ChiroVette:
Hey everyone! I am new here and have a lot of questions, but rather than a wall-of-text post, I will start really simple.

For the past 14 or so years, I have mostly used Zoom units. I have used some of their older audio only recorders, when all I wanted was audio for rehearsals, and I have used several one of their audio + video units for live shows. For me, the Zoom units have always been a mixed bag. Pretty much horrible video and decent audio, particularly for the budget price-point. I still own the H4N, though I haven't used it in years. I started out with an old Q3HD, and currently use a Q8. I have an old Panasonic camcorder, and the video is perfectly acceptable. So What I usually do is record a show or a gig with both the Q8 and the camcorder, then when I import the files into Sony Vegas, I have to line the audio and video files up perfectly, and I discard the camcorder's audio and also discard the Q8's video.

Of late, I am trying to decide how to upgrade. I'm not at all worried about the video, since I just want it to be halfway "decent", but I am definitely open to audio upgrades.

I was referred to this forum by a very good friend, who is a really awesome taper. I initially asked his advice, and I think he is so far over my head as an audiophile, he has me spending thousands of dollars, if he has his way lol. As incredible as this guy is, I really feel like his advice may be geared to someone far more sophisticated than me. Maybe I am wrong, and hopefully you guys can help.

What I want is a step or two up in audio quality from the Q8. If he has his way, I would buy the Sound Stage MixPre6 and a pair of discontinued Nakamichi CM-300  and a pair of CP-4 Shotgun capsules. With all of the mounting, batteries, wiring, and other accoutrements. He is also talking about having me modify these mics for phantom power. He also admonishes me to "stay away from Zoom products all together", and cites that he knows a lot of people who went from Zoom to MixPre.

It really feels to me that maybe the advice he is giving me is meant for...um, someone who isn't me? Someone a lot more nuanced and sophisticated, like a competent professional taper, who tapes hundreds of shows a year? Or am I getting this wrong?

roffels:
The Naks are some fun mics, and you can pull good tapes with 'em, but I wouldn't even consider those audiophile. And since they're battery operated, a mixpre 6 is way overkill for them.

I'm sure someone here has said it before, but the best gear for you is the gear you'll use. So if you have a good idea of what you want out of recording your band, go with your gut.

You've mentioned you want something a step or two above the Q8 - what does that mean to you? I think for a lot of tapers, the first step they take from integrated mics is to use external mics. For me, that was the Nakamichi cm-300s, but those fell out of favor with me fairly quickly as I pursued better sound.

Zoom gear can be good, but maybe your friend just meant in regards to using Zoom-brand mics?

rocksuitcase:
OK
1] It is SOUND DEVICES brand for the Mix pre units.
1A] They come in a few channel arrangements, the mix pre 3, 6, and 10. It sounds like your friend is seeing you have a Q8 (I'm assuming 8 channels without looking) and so just matching you up with a similar amount of channels. A used MIx Pre 6 is not too expensive, however, it does have some quirks which make it have a learning curve for use in terms of its;' 32 bit float design

2] If you are looking for external mics in the range of the Naks, which are OK mics for AUD recording, esp with the standard internal batteries. They can be modded for p48, but you might as well get mics which are already phantom powerable. As most here would tell you, listen to a bunch of shows with certain mics you are interested in and you can tell what your ears prefer. As you can see from my sig line, I am an AKG guy. Those are def not budget, but also not in the upper echelon of pricing, especially since they are out of business. A lot of guys here use AT as an entry mic.

3] Tascam and marantz both make bitbuckets which are slightly easier to learn and can be had used for under $500. I have a Tascam DR-680 which is a great low price option for multi-channel. To be fair, their stock pre-amps are not as good quality as the SD pre amps.
3a] which may be another reason your friend rec'd the MIx-pre. At least with those, you can get "professional" quality mic pre-amps and not require external pre-amps to do your recording. It sounds like you do not wish to use external pre-amps (probably wise in your case) which, again, may have been the reasoning your friend used.

4] From your friends' quote: "stay away from Zoom products all together", A lot of folks do not realize the H series is much different from the F series. I do not use them, from my research I have noticed more serious tapers using the F series vs the H series recorders. I'm sure others who use them will offer up  their experiences.

All in all, he is not trying to get you to go super high end. Naks and Mix pre's are middle class for most tapers. Perfectly acceptable and in many cases, the mix pre seems to be ubiquitous among tapers.

Rairun:
What type of music do you play? I can see the Zoom H4n being an issue if your band is very quiet, but unless what is bothering you is pre-amp self-noise (which almost surely isn't the case if you're playing loud, amplified music), I wouldn't bother replacing the H4n until you try it with external mics first. If you're unhappy, then you can start thinking about a recorder with better pre-amps.

Not sure what to recommend you in terms of mics because I basically just picked up a pair of Church Audio cardioid mics and started taping. The difference between CA mics and the Zoom internal mics is pretty big, and they're pretty cheap. I'm sure there are equivalent or better mics that people can recommend you without breaking the bank.

But most of all, if you want your recordings to sound better, you need to start learning where to place those mics. You can't expect to just put them down anywhere and end up with a good recording.

fanofjam:
IMO your friend is doing you a bit of a disservice insisting on the mixpre6 when you already have adequate recording capabilities with your Zoom H4N.  A new MixPre6 is over $1000, which IMO would be better spent on higher quality mics than a defunct pair of Nak 300 that needs a P48 mod.  Yeah, the mixpre series has better internal preamps than the H4n, but again IMHO you'll get a better overall end sound with higher end mics...say a pair of used Neumann km184 (between $1,000 and $1200 a pair used on ebay), than the NAKs into a mixpre. 

Or better yet, spend $200 and get a used Zoom F3 and $300 on a pair of Line Audio CM3 or CM4. 

I personally think that the tiny Zoom F3 internal preamps sound better than the Mixpre6's (I own both a mixpre3 and F3).  And 32-bit float recording format is definitely going to be good for you, since it's basically 'set-it-and-forget it'.  You don't want to be worrying about the possibility of checking levels for peaking in the middle of a show if your FOH guy ends up jacking the sound levels alot half-way through your set (in case you're thinking about a used mixpre unit that doesn't have 32-bit float).

As far as mics, I'm a huge fan of the KM184 in the $1000 range, but I don't think there's better bang for buck than Line Audio CM4 (cardioid) or OM1 (omni).  For around $300 shipped for a pair these mics also sound better IMHO that the Nak300's.  The CM3/CM4 also hold their own against KM184.  Line Audio CM3 were the predecessor to the CM4 if you can find those.  There are CM3 or CM4 > F3 recordings all over Live Music Archive if you want to find something to sample.

Don't get me wrong, I think the NAK300 are great mics, but I wouldn't bother with shotguns (big and unwieldy and it's a PITA dealing with the powering situation), so I feel there are better options out there that sound better.

So, if it was my money, I'd buy Line Audio CM4 > Zoom F3 would cost between $500 and $600 and then use my existing Zoom H4n to record the soundboard.  Then matrix those two together and I guarantee that you'll have a fantastic sounding live recording of your band.

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