Topic: R-44 Oade Mod vs. Busman Mod (opinions sought)

[justink]

just for clarification... i got this email from Doug just last week when i asked him about modding R-44's bought elsewhere:

Hi Justin, yes we now upgrade the R44 no matter where it was bought. Info on the upgrades offered is here:
http://www.oade.com/digital_recorders/hard_disc_recorders/upgrades.html
thanks and happy holidays...Doug

Doug Oade
Oade Brothers Audio
548 Meridian Rd
Thomasville, Ga. 31792
www.oade.com

[justink]

also, to the OP.

i'm running 4021 > Oade CM R-44

if you'd like to send me your gear, i can run an A/B comparison for Mayer in March. 

i was planning on trying a (402x) > bmp2+ UA-5 vs. Oade CM R-44 comp, but that'd be pretty interesting as well.

[DSatz]

Um, how could these "comps" possibly tell you anything about the usefulness or value of a modification? You have a band making a certain sound; that sound has whatever qualities it has (loudness, balance of highs/mids/lows, distortion, etc.), which a given listener might consider to be a nice set of qualities or perhaps not.

You put microphones in particular places in that room, but they're not absolutely identical microphones in absolutely identical places. You then make recordings on two different recorders and you play them back later to compare them.

I'd say the chances would be quite small that you would ever hear identical sound from the two recordings even if the recorders were absolutely identical. Digital recorders certainly can sound identical if all the variables are controlled carefully enough, but that probably won't be the result that you'll get because of the separate microphones and mike positioning, and analog gain settings which aren't exactly alike.

So what does the result tell you? If one recording has nicer sounding low frequencies than the other one, for example--that could be due to differences in frequency response, absolute amplitude, distortion or several room and miking variables, for example. Even if you feel that you like the results better on (say) the modified recorder, it could be because that band's PA system or the room they were performing in had a peculiar characteristic and the modification has another peculiar characteristic that's working to counter or limit that effect. Or it could be that the two effects reinforce, and you happen to like the mixture.

Either way, the difference that you hear has no predictive value. The next recording you make may have--no, will have--a different set of characteristics and problems. Just because a certain medicine helps you to recover from one illness does not mean that you should take it for every one of 1,000 other illnesses.

There is no one sound-altering treatment that always makes things sound better, or else you could route your signals through it an infinite number of times and each time, the result would keep sounding better and better--an obviously absurd situation. But if a circuit modification actually helps a recorder to perform better (i.e. make its output more nearly equal to its input), then that can be determined on a test bench far more easily and reliably than by ear, where there are so many other factors that can't be controlled.

--best regards

[Will_S]

Um, how could these "comps" possibly tell you anything about the usefulness or value of a modification? You have a band making a certain sound; that sound has whatever qualities it has (loudness, balance of highs/mids/lows, distortion, etc.), which a given listener might consider to be a nice set of qualities or perhaps not.

Well for one thing, you can tell if the differences between the stock and modified recorders are even audible in the first place, and thus whether the "better" question is even relevant.  It would appear they are not under the circumstances in the linked tests.  I agree it doesn't tell you which is "better" in all circumstances, but it can suggest circumstances where there aren't any audible differences at all.  Seems useful to me.

You put microphones in particular places in that room, but they're not absolutely identical microphones in absolutely identical places.

This does not describe how any of the "comps" linked in the first post were actually performed.

[page]

I'd say the chances would be quite small that you would ever hear identical sound from the two recordings even if the recorders were absolutely identical. Digital recorders certainly can sound identical if all the variables are controlled carefully enough, but that probably won't be the result that you'll get because of the separate microphones and mike positioning, and analog gain settings which aren't exactly alike.

Ideally, you would run 1 set of mics, into 1 pre-amp (or phantom provider of some sort), and then run a split output (1 3pin XLR to 2 3pin XLRs) and run one modded unit and 1 stock unit. I had a set of cables made specifically for this purpose.

The rest of your comment makes sense in that this is just comparing this one situation out of the vast number of possible situations, however, I think some controlled testing is better then no controlled testing most of the time (pending getting results that are unlikely to appear the majority of the time and extrapolating them to said usage which may be what you're getting at).

[justink]

Page, I think if you take your approach, you'd be only comparing the A/D stage of the two units (because you'd only be using the same pre for one set of mics. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought neither bussman or oade mods mess with the A/D, only the mic and line in stages. So, going that route wouldn't provide any difference at all, right?

I think you'd have to use two sets of mics and go directly to the pre of whichever box you'd want to compare. That's why I'm going to try DPA's > bmp2+ UA-5 (coax out) > Oade CM R-44 (bit bucket) and DPA's > Oade CM R-44 (pre). Both sets of mics on the same stand. The only non controled variables would be the small sonic differences in the seperate pairs of mics and one pair being a few inches vertically higher than the other, but that's about as close as we can get... Asside from recording two seperate instances from a venue's PA of a recorded track Using the same set of mics and swapping the pre's between takes. 

Maybe if you know a venues sound guy and get there early enough, he could replay some house music for you and this could be achieved?  I might try that out one day if I can.

[page]

Page, I think if you take your approach, you'd be only comparing the A/D stage of the two units (because you'd only be using the same pre for one set of mics. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought neither bussman or oade mods mess with the A/D, only the mic and line in stages. So, going that route wouldn't provide any difference at all, right?

Correct, my bad, I blanked on what was being compared.

Run the following to compare preamp stages:
Single Mic set > pigtail cables > each R-44 (stock and modded) and run P48 off of just one of the decks. If the R44 shows the decibel level, the set them the same, otherwise as close as you can get I guess.

[Myco]

Page, I think if you take your approach, you'd be only comparing the A/D stage of the two units (because you'd only be using the same pre for one set of mics. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought neither bussman or oade mods mess with the A/D, only the mic and line in stages. So, going that route wouldn't provide any difference at all, right?

I think you'd have to use two sets of mics and go directly to the pre of whichever box you'd want to compare. That's why I'm going to try DPA's > bmp2+ UA-5 (coax out) > Oade CM R-44 (bit bucket) and DPA's > Oade CM R-44 (pre). Both sets of mics on the same stand. The only non controled variables would be the small sonic differences in the seperate pairs of mics and one pair being a few inches vertically higher than the other, but that's about as close as we can get... Asside from recording two seperate instances from a venue's PA of a recorded track Using the same set of mics and swapping the pre's between takes. 

Maybe if you know a venues sound guy and get there early enough, he could replay some house music for you and this could be achieved?  I might try that out one day if I can.

If you intend on comparing the mod vs no mod then you need both a modded deck and an unmodded deck unless only 2 channels are modded on your deck. Your stated experiment will only compare the difference between adding a pre-amp into the chain vs no pre-amp.

[justink]

Yeah, I don't have access to a stock R-44 but I'm curious if running my bmp2+ UA-5 is worth carrying in my bag now that I got the Oade CM R-44. So that's why I'm planning a comp between the two. I am definitely interested in hearing a stock R-44, busman mod and oade mod comp though!

[rastasean]

Yeah, I don't have access to a stock R-44 but I'm curious if running my bmp2+ UA-5 is worth carrying in my bag now that I got the Oade CM R-44. So that's why I'm planning a comp between the two. I am definitely interested in hearing a stock R-44, busman mod and oade mod comp though!

If I ever get a r44, I'll keep it stock and let whoever run as many tests as they want but right now its a little too high for me.

[Myco]

Yeah, I don't have access to a stock R-44 but I'm curious if running my bmp2+ UA-5 is worth carrying in my bag now that I got the Oade CM R-44. So that's why I'm planning a comp between the two. I am definitely interested in hearing a stock R-44, busman mod and oade mod comp though!

I have a busman mod myself. I've heard a few of my teammates talking about getting an oade mod, so if it goes down i'll be sure to run a comp one of these days because a fair amount of these guys run the same mics also.

[page]

Yeah, I don't have access to a stock R-44 but I'm curious if running my bmp2+ UA-5 is worth carrying in my bag now that I got the Oade CM R-44. So that's why I'm planning a comp between the two. I am definitely interested in hearing a stock R-44, busman mod and oade mod comp though!

I have a busman mod myself. I've heard a few of my teammates talking about getting an oade mod, so if it goes down i'll be sure to run a comp one of these days because a fair amount of these guys run the same mics also.

I've got the splitter cables if you want to use them.

edit: And I suspect Nick might have some as well, just thought of that. If anyone else wants to do a comp off of a single set of mics, I can loan you the cables.

[rowjimmytour]

Would a semi fair A-B test be something like this?
Mics #1>cable #1 left> Mics #2>cable #2 right>R44 stock
Mics #1>cable #2 right>Mics #2>cable #1 left>R44 modded
w/ both mics and cables being the same and ran in the same patterns stacked within " of each other on stand. Record a least three different bands shows this way and then blind test each mix side by side.

[page]

Would a semi fair A-B test be something like this?
Mics #1>cable #1 left> Mics #2>cable #2 right>R44 stock
Mics #1>cable #2 right>Mics #2>cable #1 left>R44 modded
w/ both mics and cables being the same and ran in the same patterns stacked within " of each other on stand. Record a least three different bands shows this way and then blind test each mix side by side.

It's an approximation, but it wouldn't conclusively give you an accurate picture of what the mod does. To accomplish that, I still think you have to feed the same signal to both decks.

[Will_S]

I think a fairer test is using just a single pair of mics, and repeatedly switching which of two decks they are connected to over the course of a show, making multiple switches mid-song.  Of course, this means you get a recording that is all chopped up...best to do this when another taper is documenting the whole show, or it's something you don't really care about.  (Or a soundcheck.)

Of course, you won't be comparing the exact same passage, but you eliminate all the other parts of the recording chain that might be different.  With enough blocks to compare, you can see if you consistently prefer just the stock clips, just the modded clips, or if it turns out that the clips you prefer are not consistently from one recorder or the other.  Switching the mics between recorders many times is key, that way you don't need to worry about something like the sound being better in the second set.

If you really want to be a stickler about it, play with the gain controls ever so slightly each time as well, trying to get the levels as consistent as possible but that way you won't consistently have one deck at a different gain setting than the other (aside from differences forced if the mod changes sensitivity dramatically, but that's not something you'd want to discount anyway).  You should probably normalize each clip unless you think the difference between decks is so subtle that any post-processing of the signal will obscure it.

Even better, have someone else do this and provide you with the files, such that only he knows which clips came from which deck.