Topic: Acoustic Guitar Recording Mics?

[vikki]

Hi i'm new around here a looking for some advice.
 I was wondering which direction to go with my mics for recording, i have a small body Lakewood steel strung guitar that is quite bright, i purchased an AKG C451b and in conjunction with my JLM preamps i'm finding the mic to be very bright although i can record quite a nice sound on the lower bout of the guitar, on the neck side of the guitar the sound is way to bright. Would the Beyer MC930 mics be a better choice or would you go for something like a Beyer M180 ribbon or something like a Blue Woodpecker or is it best to really push the boat out and buy Schoeps. This is for solo fingerstyle recording.
Here's a quick recording of the style and sound of the guitar recorded with a single AKG C451B.
http://www.4shared.com/file/78097079/ce8ab1a0/lakewood_dining_room_riff.html
Vikki(uk)

[muj]

try the jz mics bt-201...they are fast enough to pick up the wood sound and each individual strings..contact tnjazz

[stirinthesauce]

The beyers are excellent on acoustic guitars.  Here is a sample that we did on an acoustic gig a few years back.  The guitar had a beyer mc930 and a ck703 (the 703 is a earlier version, the other 930 had some static due to moisture) placed on the body and on the 12th fret.  Pre/ad was an apogee minime.  (the vocal mic used was a beyer 740).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjda6a6vjUA

[vikki]

Many thanks, looks as if the Beyer MC930's are the way to go. Is the C451B noted for being a bright mic?
Vikki(uk)

[guysonic]

Likely beyond your budget, but easily the most natural sounding mic array for any solo or mulitple acoustic instrument session.

Hear the real sound of instruments by downloading raw session recordings of solo guitar (and other instruments) on page: www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm

[Gutbucket]

Likely beyond your budget, but easily the most natural sounding mic array for any solo or multiple acoustic instrument session.

Hear the real sound of instruments by downloading raw session recordings of solo guitar (and other instruments) on page: www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm

Leonard, I'm not a detractor and always appreciate your contributions to the forum, but please do newcomers the courtesy of letting them know you are the manufacturer when you post a suggestion to listen to samples made with your gear.

Consider a note in your signature mentioning that you are SonicStudios - DSM mics with a useful link to your site.  That would benefit everyone by its openness and with an easy link to your website on each of your posts!  You've nothing to loose and honesty, respect and website traffic to gain.  Thanks.

[digifish_music]

Hi i'm new around here a looking for some advice.
 I was wondering which direction to go with my mics for recording, i have a small body Lakewood steel strung guitar that is quite bright, i purchased an AKG C451b and in conjunction with my JLM preamps i'm finding the mic to be very bright although i can record quite a nice sound on the lower bout of the guitar, on the neck side of the guitar the sound is way to bright. Would the Beyer MC930 mics be a better choice or would you go for something like a Beyer M180 ribbon or something like a Blue Woodpecker or is it best to really push the boat out and buy Schoeps. This is for solo fingerstyle recording.
Here's a quick recording of the style and sound of the guitar recorded with a single AKG C451B.
http://www.4shared.com/file/78097079/ce8ab1a0/lakewood_dining_room_riff.html
Vikki(uk)

I suspect you should try to tame the brightness with mic placement rather than mic selection only. FWIW I use a Rode NT4 on acoustic guitar. Great mic for that. You then have the ability to run the stereo mix. However an NT4 isn't going to 'tame' the highs.

digifish

[Gutbucket]

You may know this already, but.. expanding on what digifish mentioned, besides using the choice of mic to achieve the desired sound color, don't forget to play around with not only the mic placement on the guitar, but also the direction the mic is pointing.  Turning the microphone 'off-axis' can often change the sound significantly.  The effect is usually more significant with omnis and larger diameter mics but easy enough to try.

[vikki]

Great info.....
 I'll spend a bit more time with the AKG in the next few days and try some off axis and experiment more with the mic placement.
Thanks for your help.
Vikki(uk)

[muj]

bright mics usually works great with guitar tracking

[rowjimmy]

I'm chiming in to simply agree with the suggestions that you fiddle around with placement.

You should be able to get a nice guitar sound with that 451b.

That said; I've been using an inexpensive Cascade Fathead ribbon mic on my acoustic guitar and really enjoying the results.

[vikki]

Thanks....experimenting over the week.
seasons Greetings
Vikki(uk)

[DSatz]

vikki, you asked:

> Is the C451B noted for being a bright mic?

Definitely. The original C 451 wasn't neutral-sounding, either, but it didn't have nearly as much treble emphasis as the C 451 B has.

If your audio editing software has an "equalizer" feature, you might want to try reducing the energy in the area of 2 - 4 - 6 kHz a few dB to see whether that brings you closer to reality. You may well find that you can make significant improvements with even a modest amount of EQ, and that you don't need to change microphones.

By the way, you may not get much benefit from the advice you were given to aim the microphone away from the sound source. What you will mainly get that way is a reduction in proximity effect (the bass/mid-bass boost which directional microphones give at close range), and of course you'll pick up more room sound.

--best regards

[vikki]

Thanks
 I've tried moving the mic around using a pair of head phones but its still pretty bright. The JLM preamp gives nothing away the sound that goes in is pretty well what comes out, i have a Calrec 4 band equaliser i will add to the chain and do some more trials. The clip i posted did have some high end tamed by the recording software, but i thuink its looking like different mics for this particular guitar, its a pretty high end instrument but being small body is quite bright. I'm looking at the Beyer MC930, are these sweeter than the AKG?
Vikki(uk)

[guysonic]

Beyer mic has (only) higher frequency emphasis so should not sound bright, rolls off lower bass octaves losing some warmth, and has fairly critical alignment typical of cardioid types as graphs below indicate.

[illconditioned]

Actually, those charts show excellent consistency in off-axis frequency response, which is only about -2dB or so at 80Hz (the lowest fundamental of an acoustic guitar).

Would you mind explaining how to read the chart?

What do all the "longitude" and "latitude" lines mean?

  Richard

[illconditioned]

The frequency response chart is straightforward; frequency on the X axis and dB on the Y.  Or do I have the XY labels backwards?  It's been a looong time since calculus.

Anyway, I expect you are asking about the polar chart.  The on-axis response is at 0 degrees, and there are several different lines/curves/whatever you want to call them for different frequencies.  Distance from the center indicates the response at that frequency and position off-axis.  Note how it's hard to see the different frequency lines; they are pretty much all the same.  That's an indication of a good, consistent polar pattern; the mic will get mostly uniformly quieter at all frequencies as you shift off-axis.

Other cardioid mics may not be as consistent, especially large-diaphragm types.  That was why I objected to the comment on the Beyer being typical; it is perhaps more ideal than typical.  This is also why I wonder why people like LDCs for stereo mic applications, when their polar response is not consistent.  But they may be inconsistent in a pleasing way?  Who knows?

Anyway, check out the KSM44 patterns for comparison, in the user guide:

http://www.shure.com/stellent/groups/public/@gms_gmi_web_ug/documents/web_resource/us_pro_ksm44_en_ug.pdf

Note that the Beyer charts above don't go up to 15kHz, where they probably do start to wander a bit.  But in general, the KSM44 cardioid pattern is less tight at lower frequencies than the Beyer, and starts to look hyper at very high frequencies.  And check out the omni!  That's because of dual-diaphragm design, but not all multipattern mics are created equal . . .

For further comparison, the dual-pattern (but not dual-diaphragm) KSM141 (small diaphragm):

http://www.shure.com/stellent/groups/public/@gms_gmi_web_ug/documents/web_resource/us_pro_ksm141_en_ug.pdf

So often you will find that consistency of polar pattern is partially a function of diaphragm size, hence small-diaphragm mics are often selected for stereo recording.

Thanks, I get that.

What I meant was what are all the lines inside the general cardioid shape?  It looks like they are depicting a 3D object or something.  I don't get it.

  Richard

[Gutbucket]

I think they are just showing the polar plot rotated around the mic axis to help you visualize the patten in 3 dimensions, to show how the pattern translates in the real world.  For typical SDC 'end fire' mics it would be pretty much symmetrical all the way around.  For side address mics, the mic housing would effect the pattern somewhat differently in the vertical plane than in the horizontal plane. I'd think rectangular capsule mics like the Pearls would have a polar plot that is a significantly different shape for the vertical axis at higher frequencies.

I thought that was kind of cool when I saw the diagram, since I'd never seen a mics polar plot measurement shown that way before.  It would make it really hard to read if there were lots of different frequency lines though.  I've only really seen this type of 3-D plot in textbook type discussions of mic patterns.

[flipp]

They are depicting a 3D object in 2D, that is they are the images below sliced through the microphone along the length axis. The following make it easier to visualize the actual pickup pattern of a mic. Think of the various frequency curves as how the pattern varies from the ideal.

3D Cardioid pickup pattern 2D Card

3D Omni pickup pattern 2D Omni

Images found in the taperssection reference area

[illconditioned]

They are depicting a 3D object in 2D, that is they are the images below sliced through the microphone along the length axis. The following make it easier to visualize the actual pickup pattern of a mic. Think of the various frequency curves as how the pattern varies from the ideal.

3D Cardioid pickup pattern 2D Card

3D Omni pickup pattern 2D Omni

Images found in the taperssection reference area

OK, I get it now.  I don't know why they do this, though, since the mic is symmetric about the axis.

Anyway, yes the Beyerdynamic sound great!

  Richard

[vikki]

Just to say thanks for all your thoughts and comments, much appreciated.
Vikki(uk)

[digifish_music]

For the record, in the studio when recording close mic'd instruments (within around 1 to 3 feet) the difference between omi and cardioid can be quite minimal, particularly if the acoustic space is well controlled. The most noticeable thing will probably be the omnis more even bass-response as distance changes, while the cardioid will exhibit a greater proximity effect.

Nothing beats wearing a set of highly isolating headphones and moving the mic back/forward, left right, at various angles - while the player does their thing to find the sweet-spot. Indeed the sweet spot will depend entirely on taste...btw, about the guitar sounding too bright, do you have any objections to making EQ changes? I am always happy to cut frequencies...any chance of posting up a short example?

digifish

[vikki]

I'm just having a rejig and moving the recording gear into another room, i'll post some samples in a few days when sorted out, many thanks.
Vikki(uk)

[jim1274]

I know this thread is a bit old...but....

In researching ribbon mics in general, I came across this old thread.  This post caught my eye as my go to mic for acoustic guitar has been my MC930's or Violet Fingers.

I have to ask, how were you placing the Fathead for acoustic guitar?  I'm actually ready to pull the trigger on a single or pair of Fathead or Fathead II (still trying to figure out if the II is worth the extra bucks) with one of the primary intended uses being for acoustic guitar mic.  What were you using/comparing to for mics when saying "really enjoying the results"?

Anybody else out there using/prefering ribbons to SDC's for acoustic guitar? 

I've never used/owned a ribbon and am dying to try one (two?) out.

I'm chiming in to simply agree with the suggestions that you fiddle around with placement.

You should be able to get a nice guitar sound with that 451b.

That said; I've been using an inexpensive Cascade Fathead ribbon mic on my acoustic guitar and really enjoying the results.

[jim1274]

I found a used pair of Fat heads with the Blumlein rig and ordered last night.  Looking forward to trying on acoustic guitar after all the positive comments on ribbons in this application.

I know this thread is a bit old...but....

In researching ribbon mics in general, I came across this old thread.  This post caught my eye as my go to mic for acoustic guitar has been my MC930's or Violet Fingers.

I have to ask, how were you placing the Fathead for acoustic guitar?  I'm actually ready to pull the trigger on a single or pair of Fathead or Fathead II (still trying to figure out if the II is worth the extra bucks) with one of the primary intended uses being for acoustic guitar mic.  What were you using/comparing to for mics when saying "really enjoying the results"?

Anybody else out there using/prefering ribbons to SDC's for acoustic guitar? 

I've never used/owned a ribbon and am dying to try one (two?) out.

I'm chiming in to simply agree with the suggestions that you fiddle around with placement.

You should be able to get a nice guitar sound with that 451b.

That said; I've been using an inexpensive Cascade Fathead ribbon mic on my acoustic guitar and really enjoying the results.

[mblindsey]

I have both mc930's and some naiant xt's.  Call me crazy...I have to say, I kind of like my naiant's on my acoustic over the beyers....ymmv.  as a plus, they are really cheap.

fair to say i don't have the top of the line guitar either and it has it's own personality:  "Seagull Entourage Mini Jumbo Acoustic Guitar"

pre was a v3, close mic'd...

--Michael

[jim1274]

I have both mc930's and some naiant xt's.  Call me crazy...I have to say, I kind of like my naiant's on my acoustic over the beyers....ymmv.  as a plus, they are really cheap.

fair to say i don't have the top of the line guitar either and it has it's own personality:  "Seagull Entourage Mini Jumbo Acoustic Guitar"

pre was a v3, close mic'd...

--Michael

The Naiant is an omni condenser?  I have a pair of Avenson STO-2 omnis that are as yet untested on acoustic guitar.  Also just ordered a set of those "Little Blondie' omnis with all the buzz over on Gearslutz.  There were some clips on the "Blondie" thread that did an A/B with the Avensons.  At 1/3 the price, the Blondies were pretty impressive.  I'm planning to do a major mic shoot-out on acoustic guitar, but am still trying to figure out a way to run, say, 6 mics at once and not have the obvious placement differences make the results meaningless.  Impossible, really.  With relatively close micing, it is pretty much impossible to compare mics due to the sound difference from even a small difference in mic position.  I guess try 2 grouped tight at a time and hope the musician is consistent between takes.  Or put each one sequentially in exactly the same position and go from there.  Guess I got off topic....sorry....

I like both the Violet Fingers and the Beyer 930's on acoustic guitar, but in different ways.  I also have an LDC Violet Flamingo Jr. that might be good on acoustic, but it has been in the vocal/harp slot when I did some prior comparisons.

This probably is a discussion more appropriate for Gearslutz, but am pretty pumped and got a little off base...sorry...

[jim1274]

I have both mc930's and some naiant xt's.  Call me crazy...I have to say, I kind of like my naiant's on my acoustic over the beyers....ymmv.  as a plus, they are really cheap.

fair to say i don't have the top of the line guitar either and it has it's own personality:  "Seagull Entourage Mini Jumbo Acoustic Guitar"

pre was a v3, close mic'd...

--Michael

Did a quick search and it seems those Naiants are primarily used as a drum/overhead mic?  Not that they would not be good for acoustic or other uses....

Different mic "flavors" are sure a fun part of this game...

[mblindsey]

I have both mc930's and some naiant xt's.  Call me crazy...I have to say, I kind of like my naiant's on my acoustic over the beyers....ymmv.  as a plus, they are really cheap.

fair to say i don't have the top of the line guitar either and it has it's own personality:  "Seagull Entourage Mini Jumbo Acoustic Guitar"

pre was a v3, close mic'd...

--Michael

Did a quick search and it seems those Naiants are primarily used as a drum/overhead mic?  Not that they would not be good for acoustic or other uses....

Different mic "flavors" are sure a fun part of this game...

just one of those things.  if it sounds good, it is good (opinion, of course).  my personal fave for that naiant so far, even though that is not what i purchased it for.  again, i'm in a finished basement (not a controlled studio setting), a hobbyist with some rotating toys, and i really do like it better than my mc930 on my guitar.  mp3's upon request...if you don't make fun of my lack of skill..

EDIT to add that I have used them to record loud shows indoors/outdoors, my daughters xmas recital in a public school auditorium, on a set of hi-hats, as drum OH's, and on ride cymbal....on my guitar I like 'em best.  I like them on the hi-hat/ride too.  for my room the mc930's sound best up top of the drums... 

[jim1274]

I have both mc930's and some naiant xt's.  Call me crazy...I have to say, I kind of like my naiant's on my acoustic over the beyers....ymmv.  as a plus, they are really cheap.

fair to say i don't have the top of the line guitar either and it has it's own personality:  "Seagull Entourage Mini Jumbo Acoustic Guitar"

pre was a v3, close mic'd...

--Michael

Did a quick search and it seems those Naiants are primarily used as a drum/overhead mic?  Not that they would not be good for acoustic or other uses....

Different mic "flavors" are sure a fun part of this game...

just one of those things.  if it sounds good, it is good (opinion, of course).  my personal fave for that naiant so far, even though that is not what i purchased it for.  again, i'm in a finished basement (not a controlled studio setting), a hobbyist with some rotating toys, and i really do like it better than my mc930 on my guitar.  mp3's upon request...if you don't make fun of my lack of skill..

EDIT to add that I have used them to record loud shows indoors/outdoors, my daughters xmas recital in a public school auditorium, on a set of hi-hats, as drum OH's, and on ride cymbal....on my guitar I like 'em best.  I like them on the hi-hat/ride too.  for my room the mc930's sound best up top of the drums...

I'm assuming this is the naiant mic you are using:

http://www.naiant.com/xtspecification.html

They are pretty inexpensive, so am pretty tempted based on the comment.  Might be interesting to run those, the just scored "Little Blondies" everyone is raving about on Gearslutz, and my Avenson STO-2's as an acoustic guitar comparison test.  The Blondies and Avensons were already going to get the A/B on acoustic guitar anyway.  What's one more, anyway....

The X-T seems like a pretty versatile omni in general based on your usage comments.

[jim1274]

I have both mc930's and some naiant xt's.  Call me crazy...I have to say, I kind of like my naiant's on my acoustic over the beyers....ymmv.  as a plus, they are really cheap.

fair to say i don't have the top of the line guitar either and it has it's own personality:  "Seagull Entourage Mini Jumbo Acoustic Guitar"

pre was a v3, close mic'd...

--Michael

Did a quick search and it seems those Naiants are primarily used as a drum/overhead mic?  Not that they would not be good for acoustic or other uses....

Different mic "flavors" are sure a fun part of this game...

just one of those things.  if it sounds good, it is good (opinion, of course).  my personal fave for that naiant so far, even though that is not what i purchased it for.  again, i'm in a finished basement (not a controlled studio setting), a hobbyist with some rotating toys, and i really do like it better than my mc930 on my guitar.  mp3's upon request...if you don't make fun of my lack of skill..

EDIT to add that I have used them to record loud shows indoors/outdoors, my daughters xmas recital in a public school auditorium, on a set of hi-hats, as drum OH's, and on ride cymbal....on my guitar I like 'em best.  I like them on the hi-hat/ride too.  for my room the mc930's sound best up top of the drums...

Found this post on Gearslutz that said basically the same thing you did--nice for acoustic guitar and other utility applications, but the X-S version in this instance:

CLIP: Naiant X-S pair on acoustic guitar

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-end-theory/192261-clip-naiant-x-s-pair-acoustic-guitar.html

I'm definitely going to have to score a pair of some version of this X series.

[rokpunk]

U87 -> Avalon 737.
this rig can actually make turds sound good.

[mblindsey]

mp3's upon request...if you don't make fun of my lack of skill..

I did this several months ago.  Guitar mentioned above.  The pre was a presonus firestudio.  This is the only comp I have handy. 

Mics close, but I don't remember which was closer to the the sound hole this time...guessing the Beyer.  Individual files posted, as well as, the track used in my final mix - a little of both mics ("mix" used lightly..I just add a little of this and a little of that until I like it..just a hobby).  I get different results every time, but usually I add more (or all) Naiant than Beyer. 

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=8d8ad69529feb83cab1eab3e9fa335caeafcfd95b4a1032c

--Michael

[jim1274]

mp3's upon request...if you don't make fun of my lack of skill..

I did this several months ago.  Guitar mentioned above.  The pre was a presonus firestudio.  This is the only comp I have handy. 

Mics close, but I don't remember which was closer to the the sound hole this time...guessing the Beyer.  Individual files posted, as well as, the track used in my final mix - a little of both mics ("mix" used lightly..I just add a little of this and a little of that until I like it..just a hobby).  I get different results every time, but usually I add more Naiant than Beyer. 

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=8d8ad69529feb83cab1eab3e9fa335caeafcfd95b4a1032c

--Michael

Thanks, Michael!  I'm headed to the link now....

Anybody else using versions of the Naiant mics on acoustic guitar, either on the guitar soundboard mount or close-mic'd?  This REALLY has my interest piqued....

[mblindsey]

Thanks, Michael!  I'm headed to the link now....

Anybody else using versions of the Naiant mics on acoustic guitar, either on the guitar soundboard mount or close-mic'd?  This REALLY has my interest piqued....

No sweat, but as you probably know....move a mic an inch in any direction on an acoustic guitar and you can get an all new sound.  Any comp by me on my home instruments should be considered unscientific (and not done by a professional).  Opinions above...

[jim1274]

Thanks, Michael!  I'm headed to the link now....

Anybody else using versions of the Naiant mics on acoustic guitar, either on the guitar soundboard mount or close-mic'd?  This REALLY has my interest piqued....

No sweat, but as you probably know....move a mic an inch in any direction on an acoustic guitar and you can get an all new sound.  Any comp by me on my home instruments should be considered unscientific (and not done by a professional).  Opinions above...

Yeah, got it on the placement challenge.  Up close, and inch can make a lot of difference.  That is what makes it tough to try several mics at once and get a useful and valid comparison.