Author Topic: Microtrack Clip Indicators Constant On (Read 12541 times)

Diver4243 · « **on:** October 28, 2005, 02:36:32 PM »

I got my m-audio microtrack recently, updated the firmware to 1.1.5 and took it to the blues jam last night. I used these mics http://www.microphonemadness.com/products/mmflexgoosca.htm which are 1/8" cardioid goosneck. I sat at a table about 50 feet from the stage, the PA speakers were up high about 30 feet away on each wall. The microtrack was laying on the table with the gooseneck mics pointed toward the pa speakers (up and out toward each).

I found that even if I put the levels at the absolute minimum, the red clipping led's were on almost continuously. The levels in the LED looked OK, they did occasionally hit max but 90% of the time were below max. But the red clip indicator lights were lit almost always. Of course, like all of them, this jam was loud, but I thought I still should have been able to record. Am I wrong? It's tough to sit further back at this place, the bar is back there, etc. I should have brought the stock mics from the microtrack to a/b, maybe these are just too sensitive for this type of setup? The resulting files sounded as you might think, pretty distorted. Are these mics not right for this type of unit?

Of course I screwed up by not bringing the mic that came with the microtrack to a/b it, but should it make that much of a difference? Isn't there a way to decrease mic sensitivity on the microtrack? the L/M/H won't work for 1/8" inch they told me, the L/M are basically the same (I tried it and found this also).

Chris K · « **Reply #1 on:** October 28, 2005, 02:55:14 PM »

just guessing here...did you turn off the 27db boost in the recording settings? was the l/m/h set to "L"?

Diver4243 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 28, 2005, 03:00:47 PM »

Yes, 27db boost was off, phantom power off, set to wav/44.1/16 bit, I tried it with l/m/h set to both l and m. Microtrack tech support says for 1/8" L and M are the same. Their manual gives the impression that only M should be used with 1/8" mics.

neutrino · « **Reply #3 on:** October 28, 2005, 08:02:03 PM »

Unfortunately you may have to run an attenuator in line with your mics as I noticed the same thing when trying to run my DPA4060's line-in through the 1/4" inputs. I had to turn the levels all the way down, just to keep them from completely maxing out. I don't know why the MT has this default gain structure, but I'm hoping it can be defeated with a firmware revision.
dB-

WiFiJeff · « **Reply #4 on:** October 28, 2005, 09:36:11 PM »

Quote from: neutrino on October 28, 2005, 08:02:03 PM

Unfortunately you may have to run an attenuator in line with your mics as I noticed the same thing when trying to run my DPA4060's line-in through the 1/4" inputs. I had to turn the levels all the way down, just to keep them from completely maxing out. I don't know why the MT has this default gain structure, but I'm hoping it can be defeated with a firmware revision.
dB-

I have calibrated my 4060s and MMA6000 against what I am used to setting for line-in to the Edirol R1. I maxed out the gain setting on line-in for both machines. The MT neeeds about 2.5 dB more gain (one notch on the MMA6000) than the R1. This is going line-in though the 1/4" plugs, setting on L (with beta firmware upgrade, on the 1.0.2 version it was on H because of the bug). You may be taping louder stuff than I am, but I find that front row for a Mahler symphony, which is pretty loud, needs a setting of +5dB on the Edirol R1, which implies 7.5 dB on the MT. So to have issues you'd need something more than trwice as loud as an orchestra at full blast from 6 feet away.

Jeff

eupeptic · « **Reply #5 on:** October 28, 2005, 11:13:19 PM »

Does the MT need to have its power cycled off then back on before changes between mic and line take effect?

http://home.rustradio.org/~rdvdijk/microtrack/
http://home.rustradio.org/~rdvdijk/microtrack/index-old.html

bdasilva · « **Reply #6 on:** October 29, 2005, 10:57:10 PM »

Yes... the MT only "reads" the LMH switch in the way up as it is turned on.

Diver4243 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 06, 2005, 11:41:00 AM »

I recorded with the Microtrack again last weekend. This time it was direct from the sound board at a live show in central park, nyc. I used the 1/4" inputs on the microtrack. Once again, with the levels all the way down, the clip indicators were pretty much constantly on. Using the 1.1.5 firmward and the same settings - WAV, 44.1 sampling, 16 bit. LMH switch was on L and no 27db TRS boost was used. I guess I'll have to call m-audio or return this thing, this is pretty frustrating. Two for two now with only useless recordings to show for the lost time and effort.

danlynch · « **Reply #8 on:** November 06, 2005, 07:44:52 PM »

I used the 1/4" jacks tonight with an adapter (core sound mics). The levels were not clipping, but seemed to be working fine. The resulting wav file has microscopic levels (I can boost these in SF, but there's going to be a ton of hiss). The level meters are worthless...along with the rest of this piece of junk.

it-goes-to-eleven · « **Reply #9 on:** November 06, 2005, 08:35:28 PM »

It is a serious drag that this thing can't take a consumer line level signal.

You need attenuators...

fuzn · « **Reply #10 on:** November 07, 2005, 08:11:23 AM »

Quote from: neutrino on October 28, 2005, 08:02:03 PM

Unfortunately you may have to run an attenuator in line with your mics as I noticed the same thing when trying to run my DPA4060's line-in through the 1/4" inputs. I had to turn the levels all the way down, just to keep them from completely maxing out. I don't know why the MT has this default gain structure, but I'm hoping it can be defeated with a firmware revision.
dB-

This is odd. I ran my 4061s in the 1/4 input with the dongle that takes power from the 1/8 and I had to move the levels to about 70% just to get it around clipping. I was REALLY surprised about this, since everyone seems to be clipping easily. The first night I ran it at the lowest setting, thinking it would be plenty... and I had to add 12db in post. I'm guessing it's because i'm getting less power? I don't know, but I can't say i'm complaining at all.

neutrino · « **Reply #11 on:** November 07, 2005, 11:27:34 AM »

Quote from: fuzn on November 07, 2005, 08:11:23 AM

Quote from: neutrino on October 28, 2005, 08:02:03 PM
Unfortunately you may have to run an attenuator in line with your mics as I noticed the same thing when trying to run my DPA4060's line-in through the 1/4" inputs. I had to turn the levels all the way down, just to keep them from completely maxing out. I don't know why the MT has this default gain structure, but I'm hoping it can be defeated with a firmware revision.
dB-

This is odd. I ran my 4061s in the 1/4 input with the dongle that takes power from the 1/8 and I had to move the levels to about 70% just to get it around clipping. I was REALLY surprised about this, since everyone seems to be clipping easily. The first night I ran it at the lowest setting, thinking it would be plenty... and I had to add 12db in post. I'm guessing it's because i'm getting less power? I don't know, but I can't say i'm complaining at all.

Not that odd considering the DPA4060's are much more sensitive then the DPA4061's.
dB-

it-goes-to-eleven · « **Reply #12 on:** November 07, 2005, 12:42:39 PM »

Quote from: fuzn on November 07, 2005, 08:11:23 AM

This is odd. I ran my 4061s in the 1/4 input with the dongle that takes power from the 1/8 and I had to move the levels to about 70% just to get it around clipping. I was REALLY surprised about this, since everyone seems to be clipping easily. The first night I ran it at the lowest setting, thinking it would be plenty... and I had to add 12db in post. I'm guessing it's because i'm getting less power? I don't know, but I can't say i'm complaining at all.

I'm not surprised.. In my measurements, the MT adds a minimum of 14dB of gain on the 1/4" in line mode. The 4061's have 6 dB less gain than the 4060. That 14dB will kill your recording if you're getting true line-level.

For Glactic on Friday, I ran 31 dB of gain on the 722. In a small club, I regularly run 18 dB of gain. So compared to the min gain on the MT, that would be +4 above min and +13. For Chris Smithers on Saturday, I ran 55dB of gain on the 722. This was with Schoeps but the sensitivity is comparable.

I have not extensively tested whether the 4.5v power reduces the output of the 4061's compared to 9v at concert levels. In my initial tests at lower levels, the output levels were similar with 9v and 4.5v.

I did check the voltage on the 1/8" after a show on saturday (with the battery low) and it was still a solid 4.5v. So there does not appear to be dropoff as the bat drains. That was one of my big worries about using the 1/8" to power the DPAs.

jcrab66 · « **Reply #13 on:** November 07, 2005, 06:41:53 PM »

my red clip lights stayed on all night at Lucero but I was running spdif in from the UA5 and I know the signal was not too hot, the big problem was that the show was one big long screeching sound which I have no clue about unless my MT spdif in, UA5 spdif out or my cable is bad....

fuzn · « **Reply #14 on:** November 08, 2005, 02:19:33 AM »

Quote from: Freelunch on November 07, 2005, 12:42:39 PM

Quote from: fuzn on November 07, 2005, 08:11:23 AM
This is odd. I ran my 4061s in the 1/4 input with the dongle that takes power from the 1/8 and I had to move the levels to about 70% just to get it around clipping. I was REALLY surprised about this, since everyone seems to be clipping easily. The first night I ran it at the lowest setting, thinking it would be plenty... and I had to add 12db in post. I'm guessing it's because i'm getting less power? I don't know, but I can't say i'm complaining at all.

I'm not surprised.. In my measurements, the MT adds a minimum of 14dB of gain on the 1/4" in line mode. The 4061's have 6 dB less gain than the 4060. That 14dB will kill your recording if you're getting true line-level.

For Glactic on Friday, I ran 31 dB of gain on the 722. In a small club, I regularly run 18 dB of gain. So compared to the min gain on the MT, that would be +4 above min and +13. For Chris Smithers on Saturday, I ran 55dB of gain on the 722. This was with Schoeps but the sensitivity is comparable.

I have not extensively tested whether the 4.5v power reduces the output of the 4061's compared to 9v at concert levels. In my initial tests at lower levels, the output levels were similar with 9v and 4.5v.

I did check the voltage on the 1/8" after a show on saturday (with the battery low) and it was still a solid 4.5v. So there does not appear to be dropoff as the bat drains. That was one of my big worries about using the 1/8" to power the DPAs.

Ohhh. Thanks for the info guys. I'm still learning this stuff. Pretty cool! +T to both of you.

Diver4243 · « **Reply #15 on:** November 08, 2005, 02:24:54 PM »

So while i'm waiting for a response from m-audio tech support, what is an "attenuator" and can someone recommend one to work with the microtrack so that I can use it? i was going to record again thurs. maybe i'll use the stock mics and make sure the levels are set to the lowest, and put the lmh switch in the correct spot, then reboot so they are set and try it again.

jkoch · « **Reply #16 on:** November 09, 2005, 04:24:33 PM »

Quote from: Diver4243 on November 08, 2005, 02:24:54 PM

So while i'm waiting for a response from m-audio tech support, what is an "attenuator" and can someone recommend one to work with the microtrack so that I can use it? i was going to record again thurs. maybe i'll use the stock mics and make sure the levels are set to the lowest, and put the lmh switch in the correct spot, then reboot so they are set and try it again.

an attenuator goes between your mics and the MT and cuts the signal by a set amount, say -20db. as for one to recommend, i have no idea

Diver4243 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 11, 2005, 10:44:25 AM »

Ok so last night definitely went better with the microtrack. I went back to the same blues jam I had the disaster at two weeks ago. I used the stock mics that came with the microtrack, and stood back a little further. I made sure the LMH was on L when I booted and stood back a little further. This allowed me to boost the levels 2 or 3 clicks from the lowest setting to get to where only an occasional red blip would appear on the clip indicators.

So next I have to try it with the mics I got from microphone madness. I also got an attenuator cable. I really don't think that it was the mics so much as an awareness of the LMH and how to use it. Since the microtrack (shitty) doc always said to use M for microphones and L for line-in, I thought maybe the L and M stood for "Mic" and "line in". They never tell you to use anything else, except H in some other situation (spdif?). I took their word and never considered the common sense thing that they stand for Low, Med, High voltage output to the mics or whatever. If I'd have known this earlier, I probably would have been fine. great product again taken down by SHITTY doc. WTF. I also didn't know that you need to reboot when changing the LMH, I was changing it two weeks ago and seeing no difference, that's probably why. I have the 1.1.5 firmware though, they didn't fix this with that release??

potsy · « **Reply #18 on:** November 11, 2005, 02:34:54 PM »

Quote from: Diver4243 on November 11, 2005, 10:44:25 AM

Since the microtrack (shitty) doc always said to use M for microphones and L for line-in, I thought maybe the L and M stood for "Mic" and "line in". They never tell you to use anything else, except H in some other situation (spdif?). I took their word and never considered the common sense thing that they stand for Low, Med, High voltage output to the mics or whatever. If I'd have known this earlier, I probably would have been fine. great product again taken down by SHITTY doc. WTF. I also didn't know that you need to reboot when changing the LMH, I was changing it two weeks ago and seeing no difference, that's probably why.

dude my sentiments exactly.

tightglobes · « **Reply #19 on:** November 14, 2005, 03:24:27 PM »

Quote from: Freelunch on November 06, 2005, 08:35:28 PM

It is a serious drag that this thing can't take a consumer line level signal.

You need attenuators...

i posted this in the "microtrack bug report" but it definitely fits here...

Quote

i sent in an email to m-audio support yesterday [october 19, 2005] about the levels being so hot & the lowest setting being marked at about a 15db gain. here is the response i received today [october 20, 2005]:

Hello, right now we are working on a firmware update that will address this issue. If you like, there is a beta version firmware revision available on our website, but it will not address all the issues that the full version addresses.

The firmware update for the MicroTrack can be found here:
http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=support.drivers

Please let us know if you need further assistance.

Take Care,

LE

Technical Support
M-AUDIO
A part of Avid
ph: 626-633-9055
fax: 626-633 9060
techsupt@m-audio.com
www.m-audio.com

so hopefully this will be fixed with the first non-beta firmware release.

udovdh · « **Reply #20 on:** November 15, 2005, 12:51:43 AM »

Quote from: tightglobes on November 14, 2005, 03:24:27 PM

i posted this in the "microtrack bug report" but it definitely fits here...

Quote
i sent in an email to m-audio support yesterday [october 19, 2005] about the levels being so hot & the lowest setting being marked at about a 15db gain. here is the response i received today [october 20, 2005]:

Hello, right now we are working on a firmware update that will address this issue. If you like, there is a beta version firmware revision available on our website, but it will not address all the issues that the full version addresses.

The firmware update for the MicroTrack can be found here:
http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=support.drivers

Please let us know if you need further assistance.

Take Care,

LE

Technical Support
M-AUDIO
A part of Avid
ph: 626-633-9055
fax: 626-633 9060
techsupt@m-audio.com
www.m-audio.com

so hopefully this will be fixed with the first non-beta firmware release.

I hope I am reading this correctly but they imply the ever present 14 dB or so of gain is switchable? Good news!

yousef · « **Reply #21 on:** February 06, 2007, 02:57:11 PM »

Sorry to reply to such an old thread but I only got my Microtrack this week and I'm a bit surprised that it can't cope with the level put out by the line-out of my hi-fi.

If I read the previous postings correctly, this was something that M-Audio seemed to be saying they would attend to? I've done a couple of searches here and can't seem to find a more recent reference - I'm guessing that they didn't update that element of the firmware (and presumably can't/don't intend to)?

Weird piece of design there.

I would always have my attenuator box to hand when taping a gig but it's a bit annoying to have to plug it in when I want to record something off the radio...

Yousef

dallman · « **Reply #22 on:** February 06, 2007, 03:50:39 PM »

Quote from: yousef on February 06, 2007, 02:57:11 PM

Sorry to reply to such an old thread but I only got my Microtrack this week and I'm a bit surprised that it can't cope with the level put out by the line-out of my hi-fi.

If I read the previous postings correctly, this was something that M-Audio seemed to be saying they would attend to? I've done a couple of searches here and can't seem to find a more recent reference - I'm guessing that they didn't update that element of the firmware (and presumably can't/don't intend to)?

Weird piece of design there.

I would always have my attenuator box to hand when taping a gig but it's a bit annoying to have to plug it in when I want to record something off the radio...

Yousef

What are your settings? Are you using 1/8 or 1/4 TRS. There is a big difference. Also if you use S/PDIF it makes a huge difference. Battery box? Phantom power on or off. What is the L/M/H switch set on ?

Most situations have been addressed and are easily handled. I have not had a line in problem In well over a year, and I usually use a battery box and 1/4 TRS jacks. I am not sure if the later firmwares helped, but to use anything less than the newest firmware will not let you get the most out of the deck.

For a lot of really helpful info check out Guysonics talk on the MT, it will showthe differences between the different input jacks and settings:
http://www.sonicstudios.com/mt2496rv.htm

yousef · « **Reply #23 on:** February 06, 2007, 07:12:34 PM »

Ta for the reply.

I'm using the 1/4" inputs, the "L" setting, +27dB boost off, phantom power switched off, recording level set to minimum possible. My firmware was the most recent one available on Saturday night (1.4.5, I think).

I'm sure I wouldn't have a problem if I was running mics into the line-in - it just appears that even on the lowest gain settings, the MT can't handle a consumer level line signal. I'd have thought with the balanced inputs and (attempt at) phantom power, it'd be able to take a pro-level +4dB.

Unless I'm doing something really wrong somewhere along the way.

dallman · « **Reply #24 on:** February 07, 2007, 12:19:06 PM »

Quote from: yousef on February 06, 2007, 07:12:34 PM

Ta for the reply.

I'm using the 1/4" inputs, the "L" setting, +27dB boost off, phantom power switched off, recording level set to minimum possible. My firmware was the most recent one available on Saturday night (1.4.5, I think).

I'm sure I wouldn't have a problem if I was running mics into the line-in - it just appears that even on the lowest gain settings, the MT can't handle a consumer level line signal. I'd have thought with the balanced inputs and (attempt at) phantom power, it'd be able to take a pro-level +4dB.

Unless I'm doing something really wrong somewhere along the way.

I sounds like you are set up correctly. I have not had any problems like that recently, even at some loud shows (Particle comes to mind). I have been using it more recently on acoustic type recordings and while I have never used the +27 db boost, I came close a few times. I actually recorded on "H" last night with the level up almost all the way, but again it was acoustic guitar(s), so that is very different.

I wonder if others can chime in on theie experiences, especially if using TRS jacks.

yousef · « **Reply #25 on:** February 07, 2007, 01:49:44 PM »

Quote from: dallman on February 07, 2007, 12:19:06 PM

I wonder if others can chime in on theie experiences, especially if using TRS jacks.

Having done a bit more trawling of the archives, it seems that this has been brought up a couple of times and the MT just can't take an unattenuated domestic line level signal. If I've understood the postings I read, there seems to be 14dB of gain even when all the levels are set to minimum.

Good for running mics straight into the line-in though, I imagine. Earlier postings in this thread gave me the impression that this could be addressed through the firmware and that M-Audio were looking into it but as it hasn't yet been changed, I wonder if this is possible after all.

So... if you're recording directly from the desk, an in-line attenuator would be needed. I made a simple but very serviceable one from plans from a TS member (http://ca.geocities.com/dkleined@rogers.com/audio/PassiveAttenuatorBox.htm) but, given that the MT has balanced ins, I'd like to take advantage of them.

Has anyone made a balanced attenuator that I can copy or is there not much of an advantage to be gained by going down that route?