Topic: -10dB pads-- when do you use?

[acidjack]

Just a very basic question, but for some reason my search didn't turn up anything.

I assume that if your mics have -10dB switchable pads, and you are recording loud/amplified music, it is generally advisable to always use the pads, correct, unless you can't get proper levels when doing so?  I may be using some Beyer MC950s shortly and want to be sure I'm right to use the -10dB pad with them.

[page]

There are two occasions when I'd use the pad:

1) When I'm spot micing something (or close enough to be considered spot micing). Essentially, if I had foamies correctly inserted and standing close enough would risk damaging my hearing (130+ db level).

2) My mics were hot outputs (25 mv/pa or higher such as the beyers) *and* my recorder overloads with the signal.

Otherwise I don't use them.

My 722 will accept a mic in signal that is hot, so I never run the pads on the 930s since I'm not spot micing stuff. Jason runs pads somewhere in the chain on occasion (I think, Jason please clarify this if I'm wrong) cause he's had some overloading by the time it gets to the recorder.

Getting distortion at the recorder is more likely then at the cap. For distortion to occur at the cap, you'd have to have the SPL up past safety limits to the point where permenent damage is being done (to your ears) and that is most likely to occur when your spot micing (whether it's full on stack humping or stage production spot micing). OSHA has a chart with comparable stuff if you're interested.

edit: clarified remark, my bad.

[page]

For distortion to occur at the cap, you'd have to have the SPL up past safety limits to the point where permenent damage is being done and that is most likely to occur when your spot micing (whether it's full on stack humping or stage production spot micing). OSHA has a chart with comparable stuff if you're interested.

Not quite, and the OSHA limits apply to ears but not microphones.

Oops, that what i meant but I didn't add the "to your ears" part. My bad, edited my comment above to reflect it.

Using the mic's internal pad will degrade the mic's signal-to-noise ratio, so it should never be used unless on a truly loud source.

I couldn't remember where I'd read that so I didn't add it. Couldn't find different S/N specs when I pull the 930 specs so I figured I wouldn't mention it. It's logical, but I couldn't remember it for the life of me. Thanks.

[stevetoney]

It all depends on what your output levels are.  I generally don't use the pads when I don't have to.  The pads are nice to have though in case your mic sensitivity needs to be scaled back, yes, when the SPL levels are very high.  It's simply another nice variable to have available to you when you need to adjust SPL. 

I'll give you an example of where a mic pad was necessary for me.  The mics were inputting though a battery box (fixed gain).  I was recording with an MTII which doesn't have the hi/low sensitivity settings like the MT2496 has, so levels on the MTII were close to peaking when I had it rolled all the way back to the lowest setting possible.  It would have been great to have a pad there because that would have given me more headroom to keep levels from peaking during the loudest passages.

[newplanet7]

I've run them a few times when running onstage. More for percussion
than anything else.
Didn't notice any ill effects. It just scaled back the signal.

[runonce]

The answer depends on your preamp...distorting the mic itself...is rare in our pursuits.

On-mic pads are handy if you find your preamp peaking - and you are adding little or no gain. Might be best to pad down in that situation.

The downside of mic pads (vs preamp pads) is the on-mic pads change the S/N ratio a bit. (the amount of the pad) - but that noise penalty is certainly preferable to brickwalling/overload

I almost ALWAYS run my -20db pads on my preamp...unless Im running something from the Nak/TEAC family - which have really low output.

[taperj]

My rig needs pads, it's all about output for me really. I have km184's which are unattenuated and have a very hot output, then I have a mixpre which doesn't have mic padding, unless I'm a football field away from a loud show I overload to my Korg MR-1. I use -20dB inline pads just before my pre and run through them 100% of the time unless I'm recording something extremely quiet. If I didn't need the pads, I wouldn't use them, but I don't feel my recordings suffer from having to use them. I do believe running them in line as opposed to on a mic also preserves the SNR(I haven't thought that through thoroughly but I think it stands to reason).

J

[huskerdu]

My rig needs pads, it's all about output for me really. I have km184's which are unattenuated and have a very hot output, then I have a mixpre which doesn't have mic padding, unless I'm a football field away from a loud show I overload to my Korg MR-1. I use -20dB inline pads just before my pre and run through them 100% of the time unless I'm recording something extremely quiet. If I didn't need the pads, I wouldn't use them, but I don't feel my recordings suffer from having to use them. I do believe running them in line as opposed to on a mic also preserves the SNR(I haven't thought that through thoroughly but I think it stands to reason).

J

I use the on-mic pads when using my MixPre, but now that you mention this maybe I should be using inline attenuation?

[acidjack]

Correct me if I am wrong, then, but given that the R-44 has adjustable input gain (which comes in handy from hot sources like SBD feeds), presumably, turning down that same input gain would also replace the function of the on-mic pads, correct?

[dean]

Correct me if I am wrong, then, but given that the R-44 has adjustable input gain (which comes in handy from hot sources like SBD feeds), presumably, turning down that same input gain would also replace the function of the on-mic pads, correct?

Sometimes, yes, but at times the spl can still overpower your mics.

[Patrick]

Correct me if I am wrong, then, but given that the R-44 has adjustable input gain (which comes in handy from hot sources like SBD feeds), presumably, turning down that same input gain would also replace the function of the on-mic pads, correct?

Not quite.  There is a difference between "padding" at the preamp and attenuating the mic's output by -10db at the FET.  Padding the mic's output level will, as mentioned, raise the channel's S/N ratio at the very beginning of the chain.  Cutting the amount of gain that you are adding to the mic's output signal is just a different (in most cases, better) approach.

[Neilyboy]

Good to know about running on stage and using the pad. I am planning on running them on stage for the first time this weekend. I may have to back them down a bit depending on how loud these guys play (first time seeing this band as well)
Neil

[runonce]

Correct me if I am wrong, then, but given that the R-44 has adjustable input gain (which comes in handy from hot sources like SBD feeds), presumably, turning down that same input gain would also replace the function of the on-mic pads, correct?

depends on what that gain pot does...if its like an analog sensitivity, then yes, similar...its when you get that knob all the way down...and your still peaking.

On my mixer...I can have everything all the way "down" and it still passes singal...so a 480 will still be peaking uncomfortably until I engage the mic pad. (which I have to use since my mixer has no pad)

[DSatz]

Yo! People!

The ONLY time to use the pad switch on a microphone is when the microphone ITSELF would be in danger of overload if you didn't. It's nearly impossible to overload the capsule of a condenser microphone with loud sound, but the electronics of a microphone can be overloaded by the signals from its capsule. The pad exists SOLELY to prevent that type of overload, and shouldn't be used for any other reason because it raises the noise floor of the microphone by the same amount (10 dB in this case).

If your microphone is NOT being overloaded but its signals are overloading the input of your preamp, mixer or recorder, then the thing to use is a resistive pad at the input of said preamp, mixer or recorder. Such pads will not raise the noise level of the microphone as using its built-in pad will do.

Get it? (Please?)

[dean]

Yo! People!

The ONLY time to use the pad switch on a microphone is when the microphone ITSELF would be in danger of overload if you didn't. It's nearly impossible to overload the capsule of a condenser microphone with loud sound, but the electronics of a microphone can be overloaded by the signals from its capsule. The pad exists SOLELY to prevent that type of overload, and shouldn't be used for any other reason because it raises the noise floor of the microphone by the same amount (10 dB in this case).

If your microphone is NOT being overloaded but its signals are overloading the input of your preamp, mixer or recorder, then the thing to use is a resistive pad at the input of said preamp, mixer or recorder. Such pads will not raise the noise level of the microphone as using its built-in pad will do.

Get it? (Please?)

Great clarification.  Thanks, David.

Say I'm cheap, though, and don't want to buy attenuators.  Should I use the pads on the 414's?  That is, if the *only* impact is increase in noise floor, and I can live with that, is there no other harm?