Topic: HOW DO I CHOOSE A SOUNDCARD?

[porphyry]

Ok I'm a newbie with a genuine question. So listen up.

This is a question about SOUNDCARDS.

Having already 'taped' three concerts (ok I didn't really tape them, I used a minidisc recorder, which I don't really understand why you hardcore people shun but anyway...) I am now faced with the problem of making a perfect, exact, BIT FOR BIT digital copy of these minidiscs so that they may be burnt onto CD-R (obviously after some editing).

Now I understand that the cheapest soundcard with digital optical-in does not make a perfect bit for bit copy (although I don't understand why).

What I'd like to know is what's wrong with a soundcard like the Creative Soundblaster Audigy Platinum 2? It isn't cheap but it claims to be able to make bit-for-bit copies as good as any professional equipment. Why do you tapers insist on much more expensive soundcards by manufacturers I've never heard of? I'm not having a go at you or anything, I'm just curious as to how you decide what is a worthwhile soundcard, and what isn't.

[AND REMEMBER all I'm concerned about is making a digital copy as close to the original, other issues like the DAC, whether it does 5.1 or 6.1 channel sound, how many ins/outs it has etc. etc. aren't relevant.]

[mirth]

Well, yer gonna want to be concerned about the DAC, cuz that's where bit-for-bit is where its at....

[porphyry]

i thought DAC was only concerned with converting the digital information into an analogue signal for playback. i'm only interested in turning the digital signal from my MD deck into a PCM file (or whatever) that most accurately reflects it. i'm not too concerned about how it sounds from my computer, but how it sounds out of a stereo.

[wbrisette]

Now I understand that the cheapest soundcard with digital optical-in does not make a perfect bit for bit copy (although I don't understand why).

Some sound card manufacturers will re-clock the signal, which means they have to take the bits interpret them, then spit them out again. Why??? because they use an inferior design (just my opinion).

What I'd like to know is what's wrong with a soundcard like the Creative Soundblaster Audigy Platinum 2?

Don't use it, or a wintel box, so can't help you here. But Creative has had one of the worst track records for re-clock digital input of the "major" card manufacturers. I'm sure somebody else will fill you in on this one.

Why do you tapers insist on much more expensive soundcards by manufacturers I've never heard of? I'm not having a go at you or anything, I'm just curious as to how you decide what is a worthwhile soundcard, and what isn't.

Well this is a tough one. One could say that about a lot of the mics, preamps, mixers, etc. that tapers use. To the casual PC user we're all using exotic sound cards, but when you price out things, they probably aren't that much more (ok, mine is, but then I've got 8 analog inputs, 2 digital inputs, word clock, and ADAT)... What makes a great sound card? One that contains a decent A/D & D/A chip, has the right I/O for your project and one that sound like the material you put into (or generated) out of it.

If all you're worried about is Digital to Digital, then just make sure the soundcard doesn't resample and you should be set. Your needs and mine obviously aren't the same, so there isn't any reason for you to plunk down $900 for a MOTU unit/card. Go for what you think you need. To use another analogy. When you need to cut wood, do you use a miter saw, hand saw, or table saw? Depends on your needs and budget. If your not going to cut a lot of wood, a hand saw might be exactly the tool you need. It's the same for sound cards. No need to spend 1K for a sound card if you're only going to use 1/10th of the features.

Hope this helps.

Wayne

[hoobash]

Do you have a mini disc deck with a digital output?? Try this its bit perfect and cheap

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=AW850D

[wbrisette]

Do you have a mini disc deck with a digital output?? Try this its bit perfect and cheap

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=AW850D

Claims SPDIF coax/optical input, what about output? Seems that is important at times too.

FYI, I do have a MD deck with digital outputs. Apparently these units are becoming harder to find though. Mine is a full size home unit (which doesn't get used very often) however.

The only portable unit I know of that has digital output is the HHB Portadisc unit and at a price that's more than DAT, I'm not sure why you would use it for music.

Wayne

[porphyry]

I am buying a minidisc deck with digital out, basically for the reason that it does have digital out, BUT this is worthless without a good soundcard to make a good acquisition.

(Obviously I also want the digital out to get the most out of it when I connect it to an amp but thats another story.)

[porphyry]

Wayne, I understand everything you are saying about choosing the component to suit my needs, and I do appreciate your input.

What I need to find out is WHAT component/s I need to make perfect digital copies, and how much should I expect to pay.

[mirth]

Here's some reference for ya... found this on page 4 of this forum -
http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=720

Looks like the Delta DiO and Egosys WaveTerminal are popular choices and both are bit-accurate when set up correctly.

As far as prices go, might I suggest eBay, Google, and possibly pricewatch.com? I'd guess somewhere in the $75-200 range.

[Brian Skalinder]

I know a coworker has been happy with his M-Audio Audiophile 2496 (> ~$100), others like their Hercules GT XP (< ~$100), and still others say the Zoltrix Nightengale 6 does not resample and is < $100 (< ~$100).

Plenty of inexpensive options out there.  All of the above should do the trick for you, but you'll want to confirm they accept optical inputs from your MD.

[wbrisette]

I am buying a minidisc deck with digital out, basically for the reason that it does have digital out, BUT this is worthless without a good soundcard to make a good acquisition.

(Obviously I also want the digital out to get the most out of it when I connect it to an amp but thats another story.)

Sounds like you have two needs. However, that said, I'll toss in my 2 cents on Digital to Digital. We're all pretty anal, and we all get excited about recreating the sound. But sometimes we get into holy wars about MD vs DAT, Analog vs. Digital. But there are some cases where Analog to Digital can beat digital to digital, really all depends on source material and equipment. I've often recommended to some starting out who don't have hundreds of dollars to start taping and transfering to use a MD and use the analog out/input on their MD and computer. Then listen to the material. How does it sound? If they like it, awesome, they may not have to spend any more money until the upgrade bug bites them. However, if they don't like it right away, they're not out much and simply have to go Digital to Digital. (usually involves a full size MD deck and new soundcard).

To summerize what I've been trying to say, just because you're going Digital to Digital does mean you'll always get the best sounding transfer. There are conditions where using Analog outputs on the deck and analog inputs on the computer/soundcard will sound better than Digital to digital.

Wayne

[porphyry]

 just because you're going Digital to Digital does mean you'll always get the best sounding transfer.

i take it you meant to say "doesN'T mean..."?

since i have taped three concerts (a newbie) and do have friends who want copies, and do find people to trade with, i have made analogue-analogue copies of my MDs, and aren't really satisfied with the results. thank god the people i trade with don't care, but serious traders do.

sure it is true that just about everyone visiting this site is guilty of being a bit anal when insisting that everything must be perfect and done on the best gear (well not everyone obviously). anyone who is an audiophile is guilty of being a bit anal; i mean, most people will just settle for something reasonably priced that, in their own words, 'plays music'.

but think of it this way - taped concerts are inferior to most studio-recorded music, and its understandable why: the equipment used, and the conditions of the recording just can't compete with a studio (soundboard recordings, however, are a different matter altogether). so why dumb the quality down further? why not make the most out of it and aim for the most accurate reproduction of what was put down on your DAT or minidisc on the night? and why not do it on something with the convenience and universal acceptance of a CD?

back to what you were saying about analogue-analogue copying, i'm not exactly sure of how it can turn out better than digital copies. with the best equipment it might be as good, but better? how?

also it is the case that good analogue recordings can only be made with good soundcards. for example,  when i record stuff to my computer through the standard cheap soundcard it came with, i get severe DC offset of about 4 decibels on the left channel.

so the various merits of analogue versus digital doesn't change the fact that i still have to buy a decent soundcard!  

[mirth]

Ya got three suggestions up above... All are cards that are used quite often in the DAT > PC transfer process and all have at least some form of digital IO. Its up to you to decide which one meets your needs and hopefully budget.

[hoobash]

The card I posted is bit perfect. Its the same card as the zoltrix nightengale 6

[wbrisette]

back to what you were saying about analogue-analogue copying, i'm not exactly sure of how it can turn out better than digital copies. with the best equipment it might be as good, but better? how?

also it is the case that good analogue recordings can only be made with good soundcards. for example,  when i record stuff to my computer through the standard cheap soundcard it came with, i get severe DC offset of about 4 decibels on the left channel.

so the various merits of analogue versus digital doesn't change the fact that i still have to buy a decent soundcard!  

You are correct. My comment about analog to analog was with a better than stock pc soundcard. But, how can it be better? a difference in the way it sounds. In some cases it can make a show sound more natural, more like how you remember it sounding. Obviously you can't do that with a stock PC sound card, but with just about any of the cards mentioned in this thread I'd bet you money you could do this. Now, is this how you want to work 100 percent of the time? That's up to you and your ears.

Wayne

[kindms]

I sent an e-mail to ESI (waveterminal cards etc) here  is the reply.

All of ESI products doesn't support any resembling of the digital input signal.
Waveterminal 192 series do bit accurate recording.
 
Thanks and Best Regards
 
ESI tech team

[porphyry]

everyone's come up with some really helpful stuff.

thanks to everyone.

[dklein]

Hey - when you can get that bit perfect transfer for <$30, why debate (though it is a good debate)?

The Aopen card mentioned above, along with the Zoltrix Nightingale, the m-Audio DIO2448, Audio Excel MD-Mate and others, all use the same chip - Cmedia's 8738.  It is capable of bit perfect transfers when properly set up.  You can find more implementations here http://www.cmedia.com.tw/Buy/e-wheretobuy_spdif.htm

Make sure the board you're looking at has an optical daughterboard attachment (to attach your toslink cable) and does not use the LX variety of the 8738 (which doesn't support s/pdif in) http://www.cmedia.com.tw/product/doc8738.htm

BTW, the DAC in that chip isn't so good but if you're burning cds who cares?  It plays no role in the transfer - only in listening on your pc.

You can verify bit perfect transfers by doing it twice and paste inverting one over the other, looking for null.  EAC also has a wave compare feature that will let you know if any samples are off.

While we're bashing soundblaster stuff, it may be worth differentiating between reclocking and resampling.
Reclocking is done by virtually all consumer equipment - this just means accepting the data 'on the fly' vs. locking onto the source data clock.  The bit values would not be changing.  It may be possible to drop some if they aren't delivered in time, but this does not appear to be a problem I've run into.
Resampling is the evil one.  This involves changing the bit values (changing the sampling frequency forces you to change the bit values).

In the case of Soundblaster cards, they all resample to 48k because that's the 'internal standard' that the chipset works with.  So if you do your proposed transfer through a soundblaster you will go
44.1>resample to 48>resample to 44.1   unnecessary!  The resample was designed more for speed than musicality.

Here's a good summary on the whole thing (but it is old and I think the issues of slave / master for a single soundcard setup are a thing of the past).  Bottom line - the author thought it was still better to digitally resample than go through another a>d step.   http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul99/articles/pcmusician.htm

A clue that a card is resampling - you should not be able to adjust the volume of the s/pdif signal.  You may be able to adjust the pc volume, but when you look at your controls (mixer or whatever) you'll see sliders for the line-in, mic-in etc.  There should be no slider for s/pdif - if there is...you are resampling the data to change the voume.

Let me throw an alternate suggestion at you - you're about to buy a minidisc deck with digital output (used I'm guessing) and a soundcard.  That'll set you back almost as much as a Nomad Jukebox 3.  I can't tell you how much I love doing firewire transfers - a whole show in 3 minutes - in data format so you can forget about all this bit perfect nonsense.  And if you want to transfer your minidiscs and know somebody with a deck - just plug the optical out of the md into your Jukebox, record away and then bring it home for a firewire transfer.  And if you want to upgrade later, you're set.

If you want to mail me one of your minidiscs, I can do a bit perfect transfer and you can grab it via ftp, burn a disc, compare to your soundcard transfer and decide if you care.

p.s. just because we're anal doesn't mean we like to spend lots of money!

david

[porphyry]

nomad jukebox 3? doesn't that only record in MP3 and WMA? i definitely don't want to turn my precious tapes into MP3s!

[porphyry]

david is the MD mate card you talk about the AV515M card listed on the chaintech website?

[Brian Skalinder]

nomad jukebox 3? doesn't that only record in MP3 and WMA? i definitely don't want to turn my precious tapes into MP3s!

Ahem.    There's some basic info about JB3 in the archival section.  See the part titled Recording Formats:

http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?board=14;action=display;threadid=5071

[porphyry]

ok either i'm stupid or the creative website doesnt' say anything about the JB3 recording in WAV.

(please don't point it out if it turns out that i am stupid).

 

[dklein]

david is the MD mate card you talk about the AV515M card listed on the chaintech website?

I think the MD mate had the 4channel chip  http://www.directron.com/mdmate.html and the 515 has the 6 channel chip - the differences are irrelavent for our purposes.

As long as you get the daughter board that has the optical connectors, you're good (if you can find one - looks like they're sold out at directron)
http://www.directron.com/av515m.html

That Aopen card should fit the bill.

[Brian Skalinder]

ok either i'm stupid or the creative website doesnt' say anything about the JB3 recording in WAV.

(please don't point it out if it turns out that i am stupid).

 

Heh.  I know you didn't ask for it, but really...you did.    It's buried in the specs page:

http://www.nomadworld.com/products/jukebox3/specs.asp

There're plenty of things I miss or just don't know yet, too, so join the club!  

[wbrisette]

While we're bashing soundblaster stuff, it may be worth differentiating between reclocking and resampling.
Reclocking is done by virtually all consumer equipment - this just means accepting the data 'on the fly' vs. locking onto the source data clock.  The bit values would not be changing.  It may be possible to drop some if they aren't delivered in time, but this does not appear to be a problem I've run into.
Resampling is the evil one.  This involves changing the bit values (changing the sampling frequency forces you to change the bit values).

Actually both are evil. The SP/DIF specification doesn't separate the clock from the data, thus when you have two clocks, you have two masters. I would argue that this isn't as common as you think. Most cards or software for the cards allows either the external device to be the master (and provide the clock), or the card to be the master. IF both the external device and the card provide a clock usually you'll get a static like sound every once in a while when the clocks are out of sync.

Anyhow, I did confuse the issue originally, so thanks for pointing that out! I don't have any clue how Soundblaster deals with the clock.

Wayne

[dklein]

Most cards or software for the cards allows either the external device to be the master (and provide the clock), or the card to be the master.

Cool - good to know.  I've only played with cheap stuff that doesn't give you that option.