Topic: To Equalize or Not

[thirdeye99]

I have one general issue/question, and one more specific one:
Post-editing my recordings is frustrating the hell out of me.
Overall I'm very satisfied with my 4061 mics and R-09 recorder. The recordings are all clear and detailed and there is nothing major wrong with them, but they have been coming out somewhat flat and mid-range dominant. Just a little bit of EQ when playing them back in Foobar and Winamp makes them sound significantly better & damn good. So, I have spent hours EQing them Adobe Audition 1.5 or Wavelab trying to replicate that 'sweet spot sound,' to a point where they sound good on my headphones and Bose desktop speakers. Burn it to disc, and stick in a different playback system (car, etc.) and it sounds nothing like it should - too much bass and/or high end, etc.

So I'm slowly coming to the disheartening conclusion that without a high end playback or studio monitoring system to EQ with, attempts at EQing are worthless because playback systems differ so dramatically. So what sounds good with one set of speakers or headphones, will sound too bassy or trebly in another. I plan on trading and torrenting most all of my recordings, so the last thing I want to do is ruin an otherwise decent recording for someone else with EQ.
But there must be a way to subtely EQ to make a recording sound better universally. I just know that a little bit of EQ can really make the recordings significatly better.
I record mostly rock and fusion shows, and they all seem to need some high end increase, a bit of mid decrease, and sometimes small low end boost.

So, question 1 (general): what are others' thoughts about EQing recordings where there is nothing major wrong? Do you simply leave it to the listener to EQ based on his/her specific preferences and playback system? Or do you try to do something before distributing to try to give it more of a dynamic sound? 

Question 2: several of my recordings have the kick drum too prominent/punchy in the sound. What are your thoughts on taming/softening its impact in the sound?

Thanks for any thoughts/advice.

Ryan A   

[guysonic]

I have one general issue/question, and one more specific one:
Post-editing my recordings is frustrating the hell out of me.
Overall I'm very satisfied with my 4061 mics and R-09 recorder. The recordings are all clear and detailed and there is nothing major wrong with them, but they have been coming out somewhat flat and mid-range dominant. Just a little bit of EQ when playing them back in Foobar and Winamp makes them sound significantly better & damn good. So, I have spent hours EQing them Adobe Audition 1.5 or Wavelab trying to replicate that 'sweet spot sound,' to a point where they sound good on my headphones and Bose desktop speakers. Burn it to disc, and stick in a different playback system (car, etc.) and it sounds nothing like it should - too much bass and/or high end, etc.

So I'm slowly coming to the disheartening conclusion that without a high end playback or studio monitoring system to EQ with, attempts at EQing are worthless because playback systems differ so dramatically. So what sounds good with one set of speakers or headphones, will sound too bassy or trebly in another. I plan on trading and torrenting most all of my recordings, so the last thing I want to do is ruin an otherwise decent recording for someone else with EQ.
But there must be a way to subtely EQ to make a recording sound better universally. I just know that a little bit of EQ can really make the recordings significatly better.
I record mostly rock and fusion shows, and they all seem to need some high end increase, a bit of mid decrease, and sometimes small low end boost.

So, question 1 (general): what are others' thoughts about EQing recordings where there is nothing major wrong? Do you simply leave it to the listener to EQ based on his/her specific preferences and playback system? Or do you try to do something before distributing to try to give it more of a dynamic sound? 

Question 2: several of my recordings have the kick drum too prominent/punchy in the sound. What are your thoughts on taming/softening its impact in the sound?

Thanks for any thoughts/advice.

Ryan A   

Those who work professional recording engineer jobs may mix and equalize with excellent playback equipment, but also have to put the recording through 'consumer' grade systems to test the result. 

Suggest investing in a set of Sony MDR-SA3000 phones with very flat wideband response that replicates the best studio monitors, try different equalizations as before for best results with the phones, then try on different playback systems.  I suspect your equalizations will be much closer to working with this formula.

[Jhurlbs81]

Here are my two cents:
If there is nothing major that is wrong I would leave it be.  Your definiton of what sounds good my differ from my tastes.  Now if the recording is unuseable, say the bass was really thick, a high-pass filter of some kind may be the only way.  So it is up to you, a standard rule-of-thumb is if you EQ, make a note of what you did in the text file. 

Jesse

[Bart.VL71]

I record mostly rock and fusion shows, and they all seem to need some high end increase, a bit of mid decrease, and sometimes small low end boost.

I agree, and that's the way I always EQ. Always sounds better on any equipment.

[nic]

bear in mind, a cars acoustics will ALWAYS increase bass response

[Ed.]

Who did you make the recording for, yourself, or for others?  If my recordings don't sound good enough to stand on their own, I don't release them for the most part.  If I have to eq them to sound good to my ears, then I do...I taped it, and I'm the one listening to it, I should get to do whatever I want with it for my listening enjoyment.

Thats kind of how I see it.  I always save an untouched master copy as well.

[corsair]

I always release un-eq copies of my masters... Since everybody's taste differ, I rather the other party eq it to their liking, and distribute un-mastered versions of the shows.

[wbrisette]

Because I multi-track only and have to create a two channel mixdown, I will eq, compress, limit, x, y, and z. However, I do it with a pair of Earthworks Sigma studio monitor and if the post processing is done correctly, the recording will sound great anywhere. The flip side of this is you have to be VERY careful not to over do it just because you can. In some cases it may seem like black magic to get the eq/mix correct, and sometimes I swear it is... My point is, with practice and the right equipment you can do it, but you have be very careful not to overdo it.

Wayne

[bishopthomas]

In the studio world this is called "translation," or how your mix will translate in the real world.  You will either have to get used to how your mixes translate or buy a new monitoring system.  The reason Yamaha NS10's are so popular in recording studios is because if the engineer can get a good sounding mix on them then it will probably sound good on most anything.  It's not because they are great sounding speakers or have a flat response.  With enough practice you'll get used to those Bose speakers and know what it will sound like on other systems.  It may not sound great on the Bose, though, so just beware of that.

By the way, for live 2-track recording I try to never EQ the main pair.  If it doesn't sound good then it's either the mics, preamp, placement, room, source.  I'm a bit of a purist, but I like to capture the way it sounded to me at the time.

[BC]

I say just leave the recordings unedited. You have very nice essentially neutral sounding mics, let the tape reflect how it actually sounded at the venue in the spot you were taping from.

[emalvido]

Ahhh
Moreless same situation, when I hear my taping directly from my M1 via KOSS headphones, they sound 
But when I hook my M1 to my audiphile 2 stereo channel, (tubes, kimber kable , biwired speaker cables) the bass sounds kind of "bassy" so its heard very urgh!! compared listened via headphones.
Now whn you listen to a normal CD in the stero sounds awesome!
Ed 

[JaffaDaHutt]

I select a piece of studio/officially released live music (that is similar to my recording) and listen to it on my monitoring set up then try an A>B comparison between that and my recording. This does not always help but it does give me an idea as how my set up differs to that of the original engineers.
I always keep an unedited/eqed copy as well.

Cheers all

JdH

[BobW]

I say just leave the recordings unedited. You have very nice essentially neutral sounding mics, let the tape reflect how it actually sounded at the venue in the spot you were taping from.

Agreed, for many reasons.
EQ for playback only

[Church-Audio]

I have one general issue/question, and one more specific one:
Post-editing my recordings is frustrating the hell out of me.
Overall I'm very satisfied with my 4061 mics and R-09 recorder. The recordings are all clear and detailed and there is nothing major wrong with them, but they have been coming out somewhat flat and mid-range dominant. Just a little bit of EQ when playing them back in Foobar and Winamp makes them sound significantly better & damn good. So, I have spent hours EQing them Adobe Audition 1.5 or Wavelab trying to replicate that 'sweet spot sound,' to a point where they sound good on my headphones and Bose desktop speakers. Burn it to disc, and stick in a different playback system (car, etc.) and it sounds nothing like it should - too much bass and/or high end, etc.

So I'm slowly coming to the disheartening conclusion that without a high end playback or studio monitoring system to EQ with, attempts at EQing are worthless because playback systems differ so dramatically. So what sounds good with one set of speakers or headphones, will sound too bassy or trebly in another. I plan on trading and torrenting most all of my recordings, so the last thing I want to do is ruin an otherwise decent recording for someone else with EQ.
But there must be a way to subtely EQ to make a recording sound better universally. I just know that a little bit of EQ can really make the recordings significatly better.
I record mostly rock and fusion shows, and they all seem to need some high end increase, a bit of mid decrease, and sometimes small low end boost.

So, question 1 (general): what are others' thoughts about EQing recordings where there is nothing major wrong? Do you simply leave it to the listener to EQ based on his/her specific preferences and playback system? Or do you try to do something before distributing to try to give it more of a dynamic sound? 

Question 2: several of my recordings have the kick drum too prominent/punchy in the sound. What are your thoughts on taming/softening its impact in the sound?

Thanks for any thoughts/advice.

Ryan A   

I think trying to eq thru Bose speakers is going to be very hard GS suggested a good pair of headphones I think that's a good place to start.. Not all of us can afford really nice studio monitors.. So headphones can be a much cheaper way of getting a good reliable reference.

[John Kary]

Listen to as many different types of music as you can on your playback system to learn how they respond.  Listen to music you've heard 1000 times and "know" how it should sound.  Mixing on headphones is great, but fatiguing to the ears and it's difficult to hear phase issues unless you know what they sound like.  I know we're all on a budget here though

[BayTaynt3d]

If you want to hear phase issues, just down-mix to mono, that'll make them more apparent.

[Church-Audio]

Listen to as many different types of music as you can on your playback system to learn how they respond.  Listen to music you've heard 1000 times and "know" how it should sound.  Mixing on headphones is great, but fatiguing to the ears and it's difficult to hear phase issues unless you know what they sound like.  I know we're all on a budget here though

Its very hard for someone just starting out to get used to his or her speakers by using known sources and subtracting the effects of the speakers they are listing to the source on... I have a hard time going into a studio and getting used to a new studio monitor and adapting my mix.. Never mind someone that only does this every once in a while.. I  still stand by using headphones until you can afford better speakers. IMO

[thirdeye99]

Thank you all for the replies.

In the months since I posted this, I tried several different kinds of good headphones and eventually settled on the Etymotic ER-4S along with the Go-Vibe V5 headphone amp. I like the phones overall as they give a pretty neutral, flat response. The downside is they lack low end so you have to remember not to EQ much if any bass while mixing with them. As several have mentioned here, I've found it's crucial to figure out what your mix phones sound like in relation to other speaker systems. And be sure to play your sample EQ/mixes in several different playback systems to make sure they sound decent on all of them.

Some recordings I just leave alone. Others seem to benefit greatly from a little post-editing. Just a little mastering seems to go a long way: a hi-pass filter to eliminate the rumbling bass (often present with the 4061 mics), small amount of compression to make the recording more powerful, and every once in a while a slight boost in mids to make the sound meatier. Contrary to what I thought before, I've learned that it's best not to increase the highs or lows (at least with my 4061s), just the mids sometimes. It never sounds perfect and isn't an exact science. But just a little bit of post-edit seems to make some recordings better. 

The headphones will have to do until I have enough money to purchase a nnice pair of monitor speakers.

[Church-Audio]

Thank you all for the replies.

In the months since I posted this, I tried several different kinds of good headphones and eventually settled on the Etymotic ER-4S along with the Go-Vibe V5 headphone amp. I like the phones overall as they give a pretty neutral, flat response. The downside is they lack low end so you have to remember not to EQ much if any bass while mixing with them. As several have mentioned here, I've found it's crucial to figure out what your mix phones sound like in relation to other speaker systems. And be sure to play your sample EQ/mixes in several different playback systems to make sure they sound decent on all of them.

Some recordings I just leave alone. Others seem to benefit greatly from a little post-editing. Just a little mastering seems to go a long way: a hi-pass filter to eliminate the rumbling bass (often present with the 4061 mics), small amount of compression to make the recording more powerful, and every once in a while a slight boost in mids to make the sound meatier. Contrary to what I thought before, I've learned that it's best not to increase the highs or lows (at least with my 4061s), just the mids sometimes. It never sounds perfect and isn't an exact science. But just a little bit of post-edit seems to make some recordings better. 

The headphones will have to do until I have enough money to purchase a nnice pair of monitor speakers.

The other thing you can do is after you do your stuff to your file ( always save a copy of the original) take it around to different places and see how it "translates" buy using your home stereo and your small portable stereo if you have one. If they sound good in both places chances are your doing something right.. I also have to say that because your mics are omni they might not translate very well to a set of speakers... And one thing I always do is flip left and right and see if it sounds better sometimes you get your left and right mixed up and that is the cause of the bad sound.. No eq.. So its very important to make sure your headphones are on correct and any speakers your monitor thru are correct and that your DPAs when worn are worn left and right and never mixed up. I am pretty sure you already know this but some might not.

[mrruin]

I didnt EQ my shows but recently found out that I can improve the sound quality greatly with a bit of EQing. My recordings usually lack a bit highs. I tend to EQ so it sounds good on my home system and portable system, I figure it should translate well onto people's playback systems. I always keep the original, completely unedited recording as well.

[Church-Audio]

I didnt EQ my shows but recently found out that I can improve the sound quality greatly with a bit of EQing. My recordings usually lack a bit highs. I tend to EQ so it sounds good on my home system and portable system, I figure it should translate well onto people's playback systems. I always keep the original, completely unedited recording as well.

Less is more when it comes to EQ IMO.

[tbrown4]

( always save a copy of the original)

Agreed 100%. I don't have a super-high end playback system yet. But I figure that I can always make a remaster of one of my older tapes when I have a superior playback system. So...archiving my unedited master recordings is part of the normal routine.

I'm still learning/experimenting with the EQ process. I have started to really notice the little details that EQ can bring out AND ruin. It is definately not an exact science, seems to be more of a development of my ears.

On a side note....how do you all feel about the "Compressor" and "Wave Hammer" in SoundForge 8.0?

[momule]

EQ for playback only

If it was recorded/mixed/mastered correctly there would be no need to EQ anything.

On another note.  You cant polish a turd.  If ya cant make it sound right in a few minutes of mastering you should prolly let someone else do it or leave it be.

[Church-Audio]

EQ for playback only

If it was recorded/mixed/mastered correctly there would be no need to EQ anything.

On another note.  You cant polish a turd.  If ya cant make it sound right in a few minutes of mastering you should prolly let someone else do it or leave it be.

I have a saying you can not turn a turd into a steak... That is so true if your source sucks you can improve it but only so much and audio is so subjective in the first place. Its very hard to pin down "that sound"  and to know when to walk away because you have done all you can.

[wilsonedits]

I eq all my recordings...  it also depends on your mics....  with the km140s always seems to be bit better with the levels raised abit... i like to avoid running to hot... rather be aliitle low then hot atleast for me

[Dede2002]

What a relief! I was under the impression that the bassy sound on speakers was only happening to me. I'm also a R-09 user. Currently I'm using SP-TFB-2 ( using outside the ear). Next week I'll put my hands in my new MM-HLSC-1 (Sennheiser driven) set of mics.
I think Cardioids will be a big improvement.
Anyway, there's a great article on Sound On Sound Volume 22 Issue 3 called "Mixing On Headphones". Great tips. Also, lots of info regarding the heavy bass factor  when EQing using headphones.

[nihilistic0]

If we were all in positions where we got to perfectly set up our mics for every show we ever taped, we would never have to EQ

However, given that we are often times in situations that are less than optimal, I feel EQ should be embraced to help overcome some of our recordings weaknesses.  Of course I'm not saying you should use a heavy hand, but touching up the highs on a lot of recordings makes things much clearer.  Also, tehre are some recordings that don't really need any EQ at all, but these are normally on much nicer setups.  I almost always lose some highs when I record, so I boost by 1 or 2 dB and I'm back in business


You're never actually going to 'record it as you heard it', because the microphones are reacting to their environment in a much different manner than your ear is. 

[mrruin]

Since getting an R09 I do not feel the need to EQ at all anymore except to amplify/normalize my recordings. The quality has increased a LOT compared to my old h120, now I understand why people will not EQ at all.