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mfrench

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #195 on: November 28, 2012, 11:22:27 AM »

Offline bobbygeeWOW

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #196 on: November 28, 2012, 11:47:34 AM »
Wow. That real?
Reminds me of the Jimi Hendrix rock of my youth.

mfrench

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #197 on: November 28, 2012, 05:11:03 PM »
It supposedly an island off of Papua, New Guinea.
I just grabbed the link to the image, and am not sure what the exact lineage is.  I'm also easily fooled by photoshop jobs, so,....

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #198 on: November 28, 2012, 05:21:33 PM »
Impressive.  Especially so if not 'shopped.   Wondering if native New Guineans recognize the western instrument likeness?  There are a few keys south of here that look something like gamelan bells/gongs or whatever they are called.  Pretty simple likeness, just the rounded shape with a dome-like shape in the center.  When I pointed the it out, everyone asked, what's a gamelan?
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Offline bobbygeeWOW

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #199 on: November 28, 2012, 05:54:11 PM »
We all have our own cultural references Lee :)

Offline Ultfris101

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #200 on: January 03, 2013, 05:22:50 PM »
In the next 2-3 weeks I'll have an opportunity to record a classical ensemble, specifically this group from the Richmond Classical Revolution Chapter (http://classicalrevolutionrva.com/). I've gotten comfortable with the basics of recording amplified rock shows but not yet done anything like this. I'm going to go to one of their "Jam Sessions" next week at a somewhat noisy bar and experiment a little and then try to use that experience to do a more serious recording at an event on 1/20.

I plan to take a crash course by reading through this whole thread but also wanted to see what opinions folks have. Given the short time frame, I more or less need to start with the gear I have in my sig. I have two recorders + a few different mics. I'm still working on proper microdot > miniplug adaptation so the 4061s may or may not be an option.

I was thinking I'd run at least one PIP/9v rig (CA-14 omni > CA-9200+gain  > m10) and then one of the following:
  • either another PIP rig if I can get the connectors worked out for the 4061s or the CA-11 omni caps and the CA-9000 OR
  • run the ADK TL's (omni? Card?) > tinybox > m10. I believe I've read that Large Diaphragm mics are more sensitive than small so the AKGs are probably out.

Do you think I'll have any success at all with this gear to make it worth it or should I try to pick up some more sensitive mics like the SP-TFB-2's or something similar for relatively low $$'s and quick turnaround?

As for positioning, I don't know what the musician config will be, but should I try to have the musicians circle/semi-circle the mics? or spread the omni's and put them out in front of the whole group? Up high on a stand or hanging? down Low?

Thanks for any insight and pointers you have to get started. I'll do some reading and probably come back with more questions.
Mics: Schoeps MK5,MK41 CMC6,KCY,KC5 | AKG ck63,ck1 C460B,C480B | DPA 4061 | Naiant X-R card,hyper | CA-14o,c
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Offline page

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #201 on: January 03, 2013, 05:42:09 PM »
Do you think I'll have any success at all with this gear to make it worth it or should I try to pick up some more sensitive mics like the SP-TFB-2's or something similar for relatively low $$'s and quick turnaround?

do you want to use my DPA 4015c set (subcards)? I use them when I record non-amplified jazz stuff around town.

My tips:

1) What instruments? Brass is loud, strings not nearly as much.
2) Where are you? Stage lip is of course louder than in the room, but it's surprising by how much.
3) Dynamics; peaking at -6db isn't the goal. Not clipping is the goal. Where as amplified shows might have a swing of 12db peaks, I see double (or more) that for non-amplified stuff. I'll run 90% of a show peaking at -15 only to run up to -4 for a handful of seconds a couple times a set. Makes 24bit recording a necessity. Side note; I've learned to use a compressor in post-work as a result.
4) Beware semi-coincident spacing when you're working with a stereo image that is this wide (and no duplicate on the other side). I've found where I want to do amplified shows at 30cm/110 degrees out doors, I want to condense that to almost 20cm/90 degrees when doing non-stack amped shows.
5) Setup is 90% situation, and I've found that I have to setup about 5-10 minutes before they start (everyone climbs on stage, I throw my stuff up, they start soon after) which is rather different than amplified rock gigs.
6) Study the Williams curves, you're headed for the realm of non-standard configs even if they use the same principle. "Right tool for the right job" sort of thing.

are you looking at the balliceaux gig or the one at the camel?
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

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Offline Ultfris101

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #202 on: January 03, 2013, 06:20:20 PM »
Do you think I'll have any success at all with this gear to make it worth it or should I try to pick up some more sensitive mics like the SP-TFB-2's or something similar for relatively low $$'s and quick turnaround?

do you want to use my DPA 4015c set (subcards)? I use them when I record non-amplified jazz stuff around town.

Quite possibly. Thank you for offering. I'll think about it. I would like to get my own mics so I can be prepared for this whenever but this might be a good way to go in the short run. I certainly won't be forking out $$ for DPAs any time soon.

My tips:

1) What instruments? Brass is loud, strings not nearly as much.
2) Where are you? Stage lip is of course louder than in the room, but it's surprising by how much.
3) Dynamics; peaking at -6db isn't the goal. Not clipping is the goal. Where as amplified shows might have a swing of 12db peaks, I see double (or more) that for non-amplified stuff. I'll run 90% of a show peaking at -15 only to run up to -4 for a handful of seconds a couple times a set. Makes 24bit recording a necessity. Side note; I've learned to use a compressor in post-work as a result.
4) Beware semi-coincident spacing when you're working with a stereo image that is this wide (and no duplicate on the other side). I've found where I want to do amplified shows at 30cm/110 degrees out doors, I want to condense that to almost 20cm/90 degrees when doing non-stack amped shows.
5) Setup is 90% situation, and I've found that I have to setup about 5-10 minutes before they start (everyone climbs on stage, I throw my stuff up, they start soon after) which is rather different than amplified rock gigs.
6) Study the Williams curves, you're headed for the realm of non-standard configs even if they use the same principle. "Right tool for the right job" sort of thing.

are you looking at the balliceaux gig or the one at the camel?

Great tips, thank you. Exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for. I'm exchanging emails to get info on number of musicians and instruments. I expect I'll record stage lip if not actually in the middle of the group in some fashion. I might try both since I plan to run two rigs and see what works best.

I'm planning to go to both. The Camel on 1/9 will be to mess around. I know it'll be a less than optimal place to record something quiet with the bar and talkers  but it'll be a chance to meet the folks and try some stuff out. They'll be sight reading so it's going to be more of a rehearsal than a performance. They can see what I need to do and i can get an idea of what they will do.

Ellen from the group said that won't be worth recording but I'll do it anyway for the practice. She said the gig at Balliceaux on 1/20 is more suitable to record and they were actually thinking about recording and archiving their performances recently but don't have the equipment so it's a happy coincidence I reached out.

Thanks again. Now off to study the Williams curves.

Mics: Schoeps MK5,MK41 CMC6,KCY,KC5 | AKG ck63,ck1 C460B,C480B | DPA 4061 | Naiant X-R card,hyper | CA-14o,c
Pres: Sound Devices USBPre2 | Naiant Tinybox | Church Audio 9200, UBB
Recs: Zoom F8 | Edirol R-44 | Sony PCM-M10 | Tascam DR-2d
Video: Sony CX550(2), CX580, HX9

LMA: http://archive.org/bookmarks/ultfris101

Offline bluewingolive

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #203 on: January 03, 2013, 08:51:56 PM »

3) Dynamics; peaking at -6db isn't the goal. Not clipping is the goal. Where as amplified shows might have a swing of 12db peaks, I see double (or more) that for non-amplified stuff. I'll run 90% of a show peaking at -15 only to run up to -4 for a handful of seconds a couple times a set. Makes 24bit recording a necessity. Side note; I've learned to use a compressor in post-work as a result.
Can you give some more detail about your compression strategy in this case?  Threshold, ratio, attack, etc.  I've run into this situation and I've fiddled with compression to get the right dynamic....I've found I really have to set the threshold pretty low, dB wise to handle that wide range like you mention above.

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #204 on: January 03, 2013, 11:05:07 PM »
Hey, internet came back up.. and Page answered most everything.

Parallel compression works well to bring up the low level passages and details of acoustic recordings in a natural sounding way.  I find it much easier to apply than top-down compression while retaining transparency.

Typed earlier..
About all I can say for sure is that audience applause is likely to be the loudest source.  Horns might be louder if close. As a general starting point, set gain to where your own loud clapping near the mics is just at or under peak and fine-tune from there if necessary.

The mics you have should work well.  If the bigness of 'big mics' is not a problem, run the TLs.  They'll be great for this and give you the possibility of different configurations depending on the room and crowd situation.  Plus they are very transparent and will sound great on these acoustic instruments.  They will also impress the musicians and gain you some respect, warranted or not!  They look 'serious'.

Diaphragm size has nothing to do with sensitivity, a microphone with a large diameter capsule may or may not be more sensitive than a small diaphragm mic, but as a class, large diaphragm mics are quieter than small diaphragm mics in general.  Classical music recorded up close is more dynamic than amplified music, and often has very quiet passages that hover around the noise floor of the room, so your concern is not unfounded.  However, mic-self noise of any of your mics isn't likely to be a problem recording in that kind of venue.  No problem on that account with your AKGs, but personally I'd still choose the ADKs.

Skip the TFB-2s.  They are quite good relatively inexpensive omnis for less than loud sources, but you have plenty of omnis already with the CA omnis, DPA omnis, and TLs.. plus the TFB-2 can be prone to picking up electrical interference in the cable (at least the pair I have, made in ~2005 are).  The gain of your preamps is clean enough to use any of your mics.

As for microphone configuration, a lot depends on the room.  Omnis are great and very natural sounding on unamplified acoustic instruments especially, but if the room sounds like a concrete bunker with a cocktail party in it then omnis may not be the best choice.  The musicians will probably be arranged in something of a semi-circle and the open side is often an obvious and good place to put the mics.  If the ambience sounds good from there then spaced or baffled omnis would be a great.  In a good room, Blumlein can be great if the ensemble is small enough to fit within about a 110-degree angle as seen from the mic position, but that’s accumulating a lot of ‘if’s.  If the room is less than great sounding and the crowd noise is significant, then a more directional configuration like ORTF from the same position would probably be more appropriate.  The ADKs can do any of those well.  Your situation sort of spans two worlds: classical ensemble and bar recording, somewhat of a tough cookie. 

Unless there is a trip or drink spill hazard, I'd just place them on-stage down low, facing upwards somewhat towards the musicians.  That is probably the most practical place anyway.  Standard practice is above pointing down, but unless you are high enough or farther away, violins and violas can sound loud and harsh from above, and you will need to be relatively close to get strong enough direct sound in your situation.  Although professional classical location recordists will scoff, below shooting up under the music stands can work nicely and sound balanced.  Don’t worry to much about music stands being in the way, they always are, but are rarely that much of a problem IME.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #205 on: January 04, 2013, 12:13:01 AM »
Hey, internet came back up.. and Page answered most everything.



but yeah, I agree on lots of points.  :coolguy:


3) Dynamics; peaking at -6db isn't the goal. Not clipping is the goal. Where as amplified shows might have a swing of 12db peaks, I see double (or more) that for non-amplified stuff. I'll run 90% of a show peaking at -15 only to run up to -4 for a handful of seconds a couple times a set. Makes 24bit recording a necessity. Side note; I've learned to use a compressor in post-work as a result.
Can you give some more detail about your compression strategy in this case?  Threshold, ratio, attack, etc.  I've run into this situation and I've fiddled with compression to get the right dynamic....I've found I really have to set the threshold pretty low, dB wise to handle that wide range like you mention above.

the strategy I use I shoot for more of an S curve than an L (or checkmark depending on your perspective). I try and get some top down reduction, some bottom up reduction, and then leave the middle largely untouched. To do that, I have to have the same signal with multiple compressors. The first is a parallel compressor (bottom up style) that I wet. Then I'll apply a straight/top compressor with a high/loud trigger and wet that some. The advantage here is I can have different firing speeds and releases; a faster attack/release for the top down one to catch transients and a slower one to prevent pumping on the parallel. I spend a lot of time dickering with them though as it's not particularly easy, but I've generally liked the results over either by itself. One tip there is to keep your wet values low as you're building it and once you've got everything setup, start letting the wet values creep up to a wetter mix. The danger is that the wet value on the first compressor will affect the threshold of the second one, but I've found that beats trying to guess a wet value up front when you don't know what the downstream stuff sounds like yet. ymmv, I think it's more of an art than a science.

Whatever you do, if you're using VSTs, make sure they operate in real time; you don't want to have to render something to see how it sounds, you need to be able to play it in the background and watch the compressor fire so you know what you're hearing and getting for gain reduction. I paid for Reaper because Audacity wouldn't do that.
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

"Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." - Jim Williams

Offline bluewingolive

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #206 on: January 04, 2013, 08:30:21 AM »
Thank you, sir!

Offline Ultfris101

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #207 on: January 04, 2013, 09:43:21 AM »
Thanks a lot for replies. Sounds like page and I may team up and try a few things next week. I think I will give both the AKGs and TLs a try if I can. I'm familiar with the AKG's in other situations so I can compare and I keep hearing good things about the TLs in but haven't had opportunity to run them yet. (well other than Christmas morning when I recorded gift opening with the kids. Certainly sounded good for that unamplified gig)

And the TLs do look cool  :P
Mics: Schoeps MK5,MK41 CMC6,KCY,KC5 | AKG ck63,ck1 C460B,C480B | DPA 4061 | Naiant X-R card,hyper | CA-14o,c
Pres: Sound Devices USBPre2 | Naiant Tinybox | Church Audio 9200, UBB
Recs: Zoom F8 | Edirol R-44 | Sony PCM-M10 | Tascam DR-2d
Video: Sony CX550(2), CX580, HX9

LMA: http://archive.org/bookmarks/ultfris101

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #208 on: January 04, 2013, 10:16:42 AM »
Tinybox runtime due to the current draw may be the most meaningful constriant. 

I can confirm from much on-stage use that the TLs SPL limit, distortion, frequency response, and stereo imaging will not be a problem.   AKG is unquestionably one of the top microphone manufacturers, with a far better pedegree than ADK, yet.. OK I'll just come out and say it-  I just prefer the sound of the ADK TLs to the small diaphram AKGs.  I don't often use them as omnis though, moslty as hypercardioids or figure 8s.  They have, to my sow's ear, a smoother/cleaner high frequency response and are more transparent, whatever that means to anyone else.  I don't own AKGs, love the 414s, to which the TLs sound quite similar, yet something about the top end of their SD mics often bugs me. [shrug] No offense meant to the AKGophiles, just my own opinion.

Chalk it up to subjective preference over technical superiority, I guess.

Page's post on compression is spot on.  I'll only add that he is better than I at getting the top down compression sounding suitably transparent.  I usually get better results by just seeking out the biggest transients and manually knocking them down until I get tired of it.. or doing that along with being very subtle on the compression, which would not be enough to constrain those peaks.  Like he mentions, it's something of an art that takes much playing around with to get sounding good if you really listen closely.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #209 on: January 04, 2013, 11:02:50 AM »
I guess my last reply on it (since this isn't a compression thread, but is mildly applicable) is that I will spend upwards of 80% of my editing/mastering time on tweaking compression settings and reviewing the results. Last, similar to traditional mic configs that have been carried over to other areas, I think it's difficult to take traditional methods of compressing and use them on tracks which are not spots but instead contain multiple sounds/instruments. It's certainly not impossible, but I find it rare. Instead of trying to build a specific sound as one would with individual tracks of instruments, I merely try and gently sculpt what I've already got (multiple instruments per channel) as the compressor will fire based on what is distilled as a mathematical algorithm and not necessarily on "hit that guitar but not the three violins sitting behind it" sort of deal. Yeah, if somethings out of the mix and louder, you can sort of guide it around and work on that, but that's serious effort and I don't think the ROI is there... The most advanced thing I've been able to pull off is different attack/release to induce punch to an initial note, but even that's sort of subtle. The only thing I sort of rage on the compressor is the wet value (which I want to average around half).

I guess this is one of those topics for a fabled TS conference.
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

"Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." - Jim Williams

 

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