Topic: Team classical recording

[Ultfris101]

Posts from you and others regarding the TL's are what lead me to jump on them when they showed up in the Yard Sale a few months ago. I wasn't looking for LD mics but after a little research it seemed like these would be good to have in the bag for some variety.

I can hear what people call the AKG "sizzle" at times on my recordings. So far it's only bothered me on one of them (Moon Taxi 11/28) but I think that was also as much due to venue sound, mic config (NOS) all exaggerating it. To my ears when I listen to Schoeps recordings I almost find it missing a little high end, but overall they are really good of course. I might well be running them in a couple years.

For now I'm happy with what I'm getting with AKG's and very glad I stretched to get them when upgrading from mini-mics for open recording. The combination with the tinybox was very lucky gear gathering for a newbie. I'm now tetering on the edge of picking up an R-44 or DR-680 to let me run TLs and 460s simultaneously to get Apples-to-Apples comparisons. Either that or another Tinybox. The tinybox/m10 overall small form factor is quite appealing. Hard to say enough good things about it.

And then the TLs are just so big and heavy in comparison, I can't see myself dragging them to a festival or many crowd challenging venues, not to mention running way up high on a stand, but they seem well suited to recording in this scenario. I think I'll probably run cardioid stage lip and angle as suggested. The stage at the Camel is very small and the rise is only about a foot or so. I anticipate a lot of background noise.

Thanks again for all the input. It's been very helpful and I think I'll be ready to give this a whirl.

[Ultfris101]

I get that. I hear a lot of people commenting on DPAs being excellent for capturing reality well, allowing for whatever post processing you might want to do. They are also on my long term consideration list but sure aren't cheap. I'm also intrigued by your mini/efficient/inexpensive philosophy to this industry, Jon. The Tinyhead is very compelling in the same way the Tinybox is in that regard for me, not to mention the microphones which all have miniplug, rca plug, low power options.

This will be the first time really doing anything serious with acoustic instruments so detail will be more of a focus. At the loud rock shows I frequent it's less of a priority since we're already getting everything through a PA most of the time and I'm wearing earplugs for goodness sakes! I basically do the recording so I can hear the show at a reasonable volume. I swear I hear the audio distorting in my ears like they're running hot when I'm not wearing plugs. that can't be good.

I love listening to many kinds of music but in a lot of areas of my life I'm as interested in the infrastructure behind the product as the product itself and then being able to play with it and tweak it to really see what affect everything has is what fires me up. I was a CompSci major and I've been an IT geek for many years professionally and was always drawn more to why the NFS server was hanging or the network was or wasn't performing well than finishing a particular piece of code for a class assignment. These days I'm in Management and the technical challenges that come up just aren't that different than the one we faced last week/month/year so here I am spending money on recording gear figuring out how everything works.

A more stimulating job might keep me out of the Yard Sale! But this is stuff I started to get into in High School but got distracted by computers so it's cool to finally be doing it for real. And helping local artists document their work and get some exposure is very fulfilling.

[Gutbucket]

I'm a big proponent of making simultaneous recordings into identical gear for less biased listening for differences in mics and setups.

Mic 'flavor' preferences are such a subjective thing that I hesitate to mention my own personal preferences even with those I've owned and are quite familliar with.. plus there are always exceptions.

Due to their weight & size, I pretty much only use the TLs for on stage or stage lip gigs these days.  I just picked up a third a few months back to do three mic on stage setups so admittedly I'm sort of into them currently, but don't mean to be a cheerleader.  I haven't measured or null tested the new mic against the others, but was pleased to find it sonically quite well matched with my original matched pair on the past few recordings.  I have B&K graphs of the matched pair somewhere- if anyone wants to see them I can scan & post 'em here somewhere, probably in the team ADK thread.

Maybe I need to take some time to explore more compressor plugins to find something that works well for me.  The one I use most which is pretty easy to use and good sounding has a relatively simple interface like Jon mentions and usually does a nice job at reasonable settings on full-program material.  However, as a typical top-down comp I tend to use it for jazz/blugrass/americana/rock stuff more than classical.

[Gutbucket]

Using four baffled mini-omnis (with a 5dB high end bump which I like but others don't - DPA 4060) tonight..

[F.O.Bean]

Chris, what do you think of my mk41s vs. your 461s from NYE

And thanks for all of the great reading folks

[Ultfris101]

Chris, what do you think of my mk41s vs. your 461s from NYE

And thanks for all of the great reading folks

I've only had chance to sample yours a bit so far and they are quite similar. I like them both a lot. I'm quite curious now to hear Steve's and the CA-14's.  I THINK i hear more high end on the 461s and the Schoeps seems to have fuller mid and lower if I those are the right terms. The mk41s sound very similar to a recording of Big Something I did with 463's. They are good, but what I hear makes me think of a flat wall vs a more open and realistic feeling I get when listening to the 461s. I think that's the more focused recording field of the hypers. The night, 12/8 I believe it was, I did the second band with 461's for comparison if you want to get a sense for what I'm trying to put into words. Both are up on LMA. Basically, I think that if I had run the 463's NYE I would have had a recording that sounding much like your mk41s. Very good, but different than what I got with the 461s.

The mk41s definitely didn't get as much of the talking as my 461s. I think that set of recordings will make for some good comparisons. Given the excellent location all the mics had a good chance to shine in their own ways.

[F.O.Bean]

My ca14 cards>9100 source is REALLY GOOD The Schoeps DEFINITELY DO NOT sound like they were $3k more

[Ultfris101]

page and I recorded the classical jam session this evening. Seems like it was mostly musicians from the Richmond Symphony but I think one or two others from the area showed up. This is a recurring event where anybody is welcome to bring an instrument and join in.

There were several violins, a french horn, a couple cellos, a flute, maybe others(?). They setup in a horseshoe on a one foot high stage and changed personnel frequently, sight reading all night. There's a more formal event on 1/20. This was loose and informal.

We ran my ADK TL's and page's 4015's about 9 ft up on a stand at stagelip angled slightly downward. I had some challenges at the beginning running my new-to-me R-44 for the first time but once I worked out the kinks things were smooth. Initial listening is encouraging.

I'll try to get pics and samples up in the next day or so. I'd appreciate comments and suggestions.

page and everybody here, thanks a lot for the helpful discussion and pointers. This was fun and I'm very encouraged for the real event on 1/20!

[Gutbucket]

page and I recorded the classical jam session this evening.
[snip] [..]sight reading all night.

Thanks for the description, I was wondering how a classical jam format would work.

[page]

I'm very encouraged for the real event on 1/20!

parking will be a wench, especially since it's supposed to start at 8..... (Fan parking zone 1 while VCU is in session) I haven't figured out what I'm going to do, but I'm tempted to park over on Main or Cary and just hoof it.

I'll tinker with it this weekend and post a clip. There are some highlights, but I think the best part of the evening was the reception that we received for coming out and recording. One of the few times I'd wished I had extra long balanced XLRs to run the gear bag off to the side. I may invest in a pair for future reference and just tape the cable down as it crosses from the stage to the benches. I'd typically left it under the stand with the lights on to give people walking past a heads up, but I'd really have liked to have checked my levels more than once last night....

oh, and Team Dumbass didn't turn off the -15db pad before I left the house so I think I ran through 3/4ths of the gain knob before I got sufficient stuff. Live and learn.

[Ultfris101]

Yes, they are really happy to have us coming out. It's going to help them a lot to have some recordings of their performances available online and also to get attention from outside their core group.  I like the technical aspects, but just as much being involved with something like this is very rewarding.

The sextet they got together toward the end is pretty nice and I liked the stuff at the beginning with the French horn. I'm wishing I had tried to get notes on what they played.

( update, got this from Ellen: Strictly from memory, I think we played a Mozart flute quartet, the Mozart horn quintet, the Reger Serenade, Beethoven op. 135, a Mozart quartet, another Mozart quartet, the Brahms G major sextet, and another Mozart flute quartet.)

I'm finding the conversations among the musicians between pieces and as they're changing out  fun to listen to as well. Figuring out which movement to play, etc. Ellen didn't think this would be valuable as a recording but I wonder if she listened she wouldn't change her mind. Not unlike taking some snapshots at a party. maybe in a few years.

Hmmm, I'll definitely strip down my gear bag if I'm lugging the TLs a ways. Maybe I'll call a cab 

[page]

The sextet they got together toward the end is pretty nice

yeah, that's the section I'm going to pull out and toss on my gdrive for them. Maybe one other.

I'm finding the conversations among the musicians between pieces and as they're changing out  fun to listen to as well. Figuring out which movement to play, etc. Ellen didn't think this would be valuable as a recording but I wonder if she listened she wouldn't change her mind. Not unlike taking some snapshots at a party. maybe in a few years.

Very possible.  There are some things that I grimaced on (I have a major gain change half way through during a break that I'd have to fix), but there are some great moments as well. With some creative editing it could be an interesting document, even from just a historical or personal prospective.

It was a great experiment, and mine turned out well. Other than maybe light compression (in the 1.5:1 range), there isn't much I'd tinker with. We were close enough to get the clarity of the instruments, and far enough away to include room reverb (listen especially on the cello). Final peak was -7dbfs. I thought about using the british transformer modeler that I have to see what that would do to bring out the cello a bit more and tame some of those front strings, but I didn't on the first replay. If we had setup closer and angled further down, that probably would have alleviated itself, but we're back to the pregame chat of what do you want your stereo image to look like. Plus, if you angle it down too much, you're rear lobe is now rejecting the ceiling and not incidental crowd noise.

I did notice the quip about being glad that the mics weren't in their faces afterward. So xnay the multi-track spot mic yay I guess.

Totally worth going though, even if it was a tough evening in general for me.

Hmmm, I'll definitely strip down my gear bag if I'm lugging the TLs a ways. Maybe I'll call a cab 

I have a friend who has a house down the block and we were talking about it cause of the 9pm parking enforcement. Neither of us realized until almost 30 minutes later that it's moot on Sundays (no parking nazis). Finding a spot in general will still be tough cause of VCU, but you at least don't have to worry about the time/zone problem which is a constant issue during the week there.

but yeah, now you have a better understanding why I pack what I pack. 

If you've never been to Balliceaux, and you have some money to burn, both the bar and kitchen are worth it.

[Gutbucket]

Note to all orchestra directors- please oil the piano benches before they become more distracting than your nosiest patrons!

[Ultfris101]

So "Classical Revolution" has a stated aim (http://classicalrevolution.org/):

• Classical Revolution is an organization of musicians dedicated to performing high-quality chamber music in non-traditional settings.

They aren't exactly trying to perform in a packed, noisy bar, but the venues such as The Camel are not acoustically optimized for such instruments I don't think.

Before we got started setting up our gear the sound guy was scratching his head over how he might try to mic them and run something through the PA's. He ditched that after he saw us setting up (and we talked him out of it) but it got me to wondering if it might be necessary if there had been more bar patrons. You're not likely to get a typical bar crowd to sit politely for this kind of stuff very often.

Has anybody ever seen or worked on such a situation?

The idea is to bring chamber music to non-traditional settings, but I wonder if there isn't some benefit to adapting a bit to these settings to improve the presentation as long as it somehow preserves the core of the music.

[Ultfris101]

He had a handful of mics in his hands and was debating between spot mic'ing and setting up a stereo pair which given all the musicians changing probably would have been best for the situation. If it comes up again I'll keep that in mind.

As page pointed out, the woman leading the group commented that she was pleasantly surprised we just had the single placement of rigs up on a stand vs mics down in their faces so for this group it seems they would prefer that method if reinforcement was needed.