Topic: Team classical recording

[voltronic]

Beautiful setting. 

Having recorded in a lot of churches I will say most sound... well... cavernous.  You have to get close (as you did).  Since they are not often designed with the acoustics of music in mind (though sometimes with the thought of naturally amplifying spoken word) they tend to be extremely "live" and reverberant.  Good settings for choir or classical perhaps but most are extraordinarily challenging with any amplification in the room... 

Will try to listen later.

The acoustics were really great for such a small church.  If you check my original post, I just uploaded a much better picture that a church member took during the concert. 

I was set up that close mainly because I had to be in order to not interfere with the audience getting in and out.  I went DIN-A instead of DIN or ORTF in an effort to get more hall sound while still being that close.  If we were just recording there rather than doing a live concert, I would have preferred to be more towards the middle of the church.  I'm not sure if my interpretation of Stereophonic Zoom is correct as far as that goes, but if I have understood correctly DIN-A would give me the widest SRA of those 3 setups.

[Gutbucket]

I went DIN-A instead of DIN or ORTF in an effort to get more hall sound while still being that close.  If we were just recording there rather than doing a live concert, I would have preferred to be more towards the middle of the church.  I'm not sure if my interpretation of Stereophonic Zoom is correct as far as that goes, but if I have understood correctly DIN-A would give me the widest SRA of those 3 setups.

Widest in the sense of the distribution of sound sources between the speakers.  If located in the same spot, what will change most between those setups is the playback stereo imaging, not so much the amout of hall sound on the recording.  Actually ORTF will pickup slightly more room sound due to the wider angle between mics, but to change the direct/reverberant balance significantly you'd need to move closer/farther-away or more radically change the angle between microphones and perhaps the pickup pattern.

[voltronic]

I went DIN-A instead of DIN or ORTF in an effort to get more hall sound while still being that close.  If we were just recording there rather than doing a live concert, I would have preferred to be more towards the middle of the church.  I'm not sure if my interpretation of Stereophonic Zoom is correct as far as that goes, but if I have understood correctly DIN-A would give me the widest SRA of those 3 setups.

Widest in the sense of the distribution of sound sources between the speakers.  If located in the same spot, what will change most between those setups is the playback stereo imaging, not so much the amout of hall sound on the recording.  Actually ORTF will pickup slightly more room sound due to the wider angle between mics, but to change the direct/reverberant balance significantly you'd need to move closer/farther-away or more radically change the angle between microphones and perhaps the pickup pattern.

Hmm, I guess I need to go study the SZ paper again.  I was under the assumption that ORTF would actually pickup less room sound becuase while the mic angle is widest of the 3 arrangements, its SRA is narrowest.  This is the part of the SZ paper that took me the longest to wrap my head around, and maybe I still don't quite get it.

My main concern during setup was making sure the entire group was within the range of the SRA.   Moving my stand farther back was not an option, unfortunately.  When I measured angles from the mic position, the outer singers of the ensemble would have been outside the SRA of ORTF (96 deg for cards).  We were just within the SRA boundaries for DIN, so I chose DIN-A to give me some breathing room in covering everyone and hopefully capturing some more of the room sound also.  Was my OCD measuring of angles unnecessary?

BTW, this is the app I used to measure the angles quickly with my phone: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.appyhand.bearingcompass
You rotate into landscape mode and then you are looking at your camera with a horizontal compass bearing overlay on the screen.  I took a bearing of straight ahead from the mic position, then pivoted left and right to the edges of the group and noted the bearings of those points also and then added / subtracted from the original bearing to come up with the width of the group as seen from the mic position.  I must have tried about 10 different apps before I found one that did this.

[page]

if you want to cheat @ SRA calculations:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Visualization-ORTF-E.htm

[voltronic]

if you want to cheat @ SRA calculations:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Visualization-ORTF-E.htm

Yup, that's what I was using, on recommendation from someone here at TS.  I also use this:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.com.neumann.recordingtools
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/recording-tools/id576702914?mt=8

[page]

if you want to cheat @ SRA calculations:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Visualization-ORTF-E.htm

Yup, that's what I was using, on recommendation from someone here at TS.

ok, then yeah, I'd suggest re-reading the SRA bit; thats the benefit of the sengpiel visualization; you can see where given a known orchestral angle, you can see where it would end up when played back without having to mess with the SRA (but it will provide it).

Now, it's nice to know why that works that way, and thats a concept that could probably use some more face time here, but it's not technically needed as long as you can fire up that site.

[Gutbucket]

Hmm, I guess I need to go study the SZ paper again.  I was under the assumption that ORTF would actually pickup less room sound becuase while the mic angle is widest of the 3 arrangements, its SRA is narrowest.  This is the part of the SZ paper that took me the longest to wrap my head around, and maybe I still don't quite get it.

It's not intuitive. I still get confused about it and have to think it though at times, but this is how I think about a basic dichotomy going on with mic configurations- there are two separate primary aspects: The combined polar pattern of the mic pair and the stereo playback imaging it produces.  The Stereo Zoom addresses the playback imaging part directly, what it doesn't address directly but one of the important things which changes when selecting between different Stereo Zoom configurations with equivalent SRAs, is the combined directional sensitivity of the two microphone patterns which effects sound arriving from outside the SRA.  It's not the polar plot for a single mic, but the combination of two in that specific arrangement, covering the region where the two patterns overlap enough to produce stereo imaging (the stereo zoom region), but also including large areas of sensitivity outside of the SRA 'frame' which crops the playback image window between speakers. And it's that region where much of the sonic reflections, audience reaction, cooks in the kitchen, and reverberant information is coming from.

There are also other aspects that change when switching between different configurations which produce same SRA, such as the specifics of the distribution of individual sound sources within the SRA window- whether they are spaced evenly across the playback window in the same relationship as they were at the recording session or clumped towards either speaker towards the edges, but that is of secondary importance to how the combined polar pattern effects the ambient pickup of sound arriving from outside to the SRA window.

[Ultfris101]

One of my favorite performances and recordings from Classical Revolution RVA so far: Heiliger Dankegesang

https://archive.org/details/classicalrevrva2013-08-21.pairs.mk5.tb.r-44.flac16

Source: Schoeps MK5c(DIN,~7ft) > Naiant Tinybox > Edirol R-44 > wav@24bit/48kHz
Lineage: wav@24bit/48kHz > Audacity (comp) > wav@16bit/44.1kHz > TLH > FLAC 6

Tracklist:

01 Intro
02 Sicut Cervus
03 Heiliger Dankegesang
04 Outro

Total: 27:01



Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina (1525-1594) – Sicut Cervus arranged for string quartet by M. Kamada

Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827) – String Quartet in a minor, op. 132, III. Molto adagio – Andante – molto adagio – Andante – molto adagio (Heiliger Dankegesang)

[dean]

One of my favorite performances and recordings from Classical Revolution RVA so far: Heiliger Dankegesang

https://archive.org/details/classicalrevrva2013-08-21.pairs.mk5.tb.r-44.flac16

Source: Schoeps MK5c(DIN,~7ft) > Naiant Tinybox > Edirol R-44 > wav@24bit/48kHz
Lineage: wav@24bit/48kHz > Audacity (comp) > wav@16bit/44.1kHz > TLH > FLAC 6

Tracklist:

01 Intro
02 Sicut Cervus
03 Heiliger Dankegesang
04 Outro

Total: 27:01



Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina (1525-1594) – Sicut Cervus arranged for string quartet by M. Kamada

Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827) – String Quartet in a minor, op. 132, III. Molto adagio – Andante – molto adagio – Andante – molto adagio (Heiliger Dankegesang)

This is excellent.  Thanks!

[ilduclo]

just recorded Seshadri/Vyas sitar/tabla duets at a place with marvelous acoustics using dpa 4061's. Just a great clear sound, unfortunately I had this loud woman behind me talking and groaning at times. She shut up when I gave her the look. A bad audience member can really affect the recording

[NorseHorse]

Some jazz musicians hate sound reinforcement too    Ask Lee Konitz about that sometime... or maybe not if you're the one who wants to set up mics.   

So does Konitz get worked up if you only want to send mics signal to a recorder and not a PA?

Actually, he doesn't really like to see mics much at all.     Here's my recording of Lee performing at the Atlas Performing Arts Center in Washington DC with Brad Linde and co: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9mymH_Y7TU  BombDiggity might remember Lee grumping at me when I went up to adjust the mic for this piece.  You gotta do what ya gotta do.

[bombdiggity]

Some jazz musicians hate sound reinforcement too    Ask Lee Konitz about that sometime... or maybe not if you're the one who wants to set up mics.   

So does Konitz get worked up if you only want to send mics signal to a recorder and not a PA?

Actually, he doesn't really like to see mics much at all.     Here's my recording of Lee performing at the Atlas Performing Arts Center in Washington DC with Brad Linde and co: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9mymH_Y7TU  BombDiggity might remember Lee grumping at me when I went up to adjust the mic for this piece.  You gotta do what ya gotta do.

LOL.  I was surprised he said OK to all that (though maybe wasn't entirely aware what he was walking into that night).  It was a special performance though so he probably wanted it documented if it worked out (which it certainly did). 

He hates mics, especially for sound reinforcement, though doesn't like them for recording much either...  but on the other hand the one night he said not to record he asked if it was recorded after the show was over.  I think he feels they're distracting (and maybe make him self-conscious).  He is notorious for playing off mic (even on his own official live recording dates).  Definitely of the ambient school. 

[Gutbucket]

Lee performing at the Atlas Performing Arts Center in Washington DC with Brad Linde and co.

Well done.

[jnorman]

all - i just finished doing a CD project for a local composer, with piano, soprano, and flute.  the vocalist was one of the best musicians i have ever worked with.  the CD was recorded live in my studio - ORTF km184s mains, C414b-uls vocal spot, KM183s piano spots.  i would appreciate any comments from my fellow TS'ers.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Now-Today-Will-Sing-Sappho/dp/B00FBX2QKS

[voltronic]

Here are a few samples of things I've recorded in the past week using my CM3s in the community-preferred NOS array (at least on GS that is).  I continue to be impressed by these mics, especially for the price.

First two are a chamber choir concert I sang in last weekend - very small church but nice acoustics.  This is an auditioned but amateur group.  Choir and piano at one corner of modern squarish church, CM3s 10ft up behind conductor, about 10-15ft closer to ensemble than exact center of room.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wtwukenlb4mbls6/08.%2008%20Ubi%20Caritas.mp3?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nq76h66a5mhw15s/09.%2009%20Ziegeunerlieder.mp3?dl=0

Last one is solo piano (me) in a large high school auditorium. Mics are behind center orchestra seats, about 20ft forward of balcony overhang. Please excuse my errors in the fugue. Also, I had to run this one through RX noise removal because of the massive A/C blowers in there.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o71p41pl8dm9oyb/10%20Shostakovich%20Op%2087%20No%2015.mp3?dl=0

For both concerts, the lineage was CM3 > Shure FP24 > Sony PCM-M10.

Curious to hear feedback from you good people.