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Author Topic: Team classical recording  (Read 107114 times)

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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #300 on: October 14, 2014, 12:34:18 PM »
^ I remain fairly impressed.  Given that much of what I record involves electric bass and drums I'm curious about the results with a full low end. 

I'm debating sending my V's to the factory for a cleaning/maintenance/check up so am casting about for whether I might need something else while they're out.  So I remain tempted but perhaps closer... 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #301 on: October 14, 2014, 12:37:12 PM »
For me, the piano sounds too distant.   For some reason, I automatically think of positioning the CM3's just outside the lid (up) near the curve of a grand piano instead of out in the auditorium.  Or one in the curve and the other at the tail. 

There's an awesome piano recording in the CM3 thread at GS and another one of a smallish console piano in a WWII barracks or warehouse in another thread over there. The console sounded larger than it actually was when it was finally revealed what it was.   You've probably already searched them out, but I will put up the links if needed. 


Offline voltronic

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #302 on: October 14, 2014, 05:08:45 PM »
For me, the piano sounds too distant.   For some reason, I automatically think of positioning the CM3's just outside the lid (up) near the curve of a grand piano instead of out in the auditorium.  Or one in the curve and the other at the tail. 

There's an awesome piano recording in the CM3 thread at GS and another one of a smallish console piano in a WWII barracks or warehouse in another thread over there. The console sounded larger than it actually was when it was finally revealed what it was.   You've probably already searched them out, but I will put up the links if needed.

The GS thread is what sold me on buying these mics, so yes I know the samples you're talking about.

For the piano recording, I completely agree that it is too distant, but my placement was dictated by local TV coverage - they wouldn't allow my mics to be in the shot so that's as close as I could get.  Stage lip would not work in this instance either because it was a recital of various ensembles in different configurations, so I needed to go a bit farther back anyway to get a decent balance with the concert overall.
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.
- Gustav Mahler

Acoustic Recording Techniques
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #303 on: October 14, 2014, 05:13:03 PM »
An artist such as yourself should be able to command whatever mic placement he wants. 

Offline voltronic

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #304 on: October 14, 2014, 05:34:12 PM »
^ I remain fairly impressed.  Given that much of what I record involves electric bass and drums I'm curious about the results with a full low end. 

I'm debating sending my V's to the factory for a cleaning/maintenance/check up so am casting about for whether I might need something else while they're out.  So I remain tempted but perhaps closer...

On the GS thread 2manyrocks referenced, there are some samples where the CM3 compares pretty favorably to the MK21 subcard (not MK4 as that's a true cardioid).  Here's a couple piano solo shootouts one board member did:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/product-alerts-older-than-2-months/52519-line-audio-design-cm3.html#post6716883
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/650884-sdc-acoustic-guitar.html#post7062692

Not much I record has a lot of bass, but here's an organ solo (although soft) from that same choir concert.  Again, a very tiny church so a similarly sized organ.  The CM3s certainly don't have the low end of omnis, but you can hear they get quite a bit of the bass:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4g6t7gbkhkn7tnd/10.%2010%20Mendelssohn.mp3?dl=0

If you really want to here what these can do though, check this out. - I've posted the album below elsewhere here before.  I've spoken with the bass player and he assured me the whole thing was done with just one pair of CM3s (close overhead array) straight into a SD 702.
http://elswhr.co/projects/lumiere
http://elswhr.co/blog/photos-from-lumiere-recording-session
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.
- Gustav Mahler

Acoustic Recording Techniques
Team Classical
Team Line Audio
Team DPA

Offline voltronic

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #305 on: October 14, 2014, 05:39:01 PM »
An artist such as yourself should be able to command whatever mic placement he wants.
Well thanks, but this wasn't the "me" show - there was lots of other stuff going on and I needed to make sure I could get it all.  Plus, the TV people were doing us a favor covering the event and also a very professional job of running our lights and PA, so I was more than happy to compromise with them.  All that considered, they gave me the exact placement I asked for - even though I knew it wouldn't be optimal for my particular part of the concert.
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.
- Gustav Mahler

Acoustic Recording Techniques
Team Classical
Team Line Audio
Team DPA

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #306 on: October 14, 2014, 09:04:15 PM »
The sample of that first choral piece you posted is fantastic.

Piano is often just plain difficult to get sounding right, IME.  It so often suffers from either sounding distant with not enough direct attack and dynamics, or is too dry, close and flat sounding without body, and often weird peaks in the midrange.  Of course, maybe I'm just not that good at recording it well.

Thanks for sharing samples of your playing, that's quite a piece to tackle!

Haven't listened to the GS samples (haven't spent much time there in a long while). Post a link to those CM3 samples over there if it's not a hassle.  I'll be out for about a week, but will give them a listen when I get a chance.  I do like what I hear from the CM3s.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #307 on: October 15, 2014, 11:16:44 AM »
While piano and voice may be difficult they don't really give a full range when compared to what is needed for a band (bass and drums).  Nevertheless I suspect these would give a reasonable representation of that end without being overwhelmed or overemphasizing those aspects (the two main issues likely to crop up with any mics).  The tone seems good.  that's what I'm most concerned with. 

I don't need or expect them to be better than Schoeps (and they're not based on the GS samples, which while they sound good do not convey the same nuances).  I'd just want to like them more than the SP CMC-25's or Naks that are my backups...   As far as my taste and type of recording I really haven't run across anything small and inexpensive I like better than the CMC-25's (though perhaps a little thin as small cards are prone to be that works in their favor with the low end in less than ideal situations/distances and since the tone is good across the range a little eq can bring back the bass to taste).  These are larger but seem like they may offer some utility in situations where I'd want to fly something and may give a more balanced representation out of the box in some circumstances. 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #308 on: October 15, 2014, 02:05:21 PM »
Piano goes plenty low, at least if it's a grand.  On a spinet or baby grand the fundamental of the lowest notes is not prominent, but on a 9' grand it's much better.  Lowest note on a piano is A0, which is 27.5Hz, and a step below the low note on a five-string bass (unless detuned).

I recognize that but also that the dynamics and balance are not the same as among a band within a typical room.  On a piano the whole range is fundamentally balanced. 

In a live music setting with several instruments and a little distance you can pretty soon be dealing with a heavy predominance of reverberating drums and bass and might not even hear an accompanying piano in the same range.  The tone of the mics is very important across the range but the stability or predictability across the range maybe more so.  Many mics just sound like crap once you move them into that sort of setting, though that may be a lot less apparent on a recording of solo piano up close where a lot less is going on at the same time.  Piano can be a good test of the general tone though. 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #309 on: October 15, 2014, 02:28:52 PM »
I've used CM3s to record speeches, choirs and piano, and found them to record a smooth, pleasing sound in each instance.  I don't have Schoeps to compare them with, but I have read others comment that higher end mics do give more details.  With amateur choirs generally, a little rounding off can be a good thing. 

Getting an enjoyable piano recording is not an easy task.   So many pianos are poorly maintained and placed in terrible rooms to start with.  A well tuned piano in a good room will reveal shortcomings in a microphone pretty quickly, IMO.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #310 on: October 15, 2014, 03:51:31 PM »
The thing about bass and drums with PA amplified bands is that part of the spectrum is often over-emphasized by the PA system, the mix EQ or a combination of the two, and is sometimes aggravated by the room acoustics.  In moderate amounts that emphasis is enjoyable.  But so often it's either simply too much or just tends to muddy up the rest of the recording.  In that situation, mics with a downward sloping low-frequency response can help compensate by having a response curve that resembles something of an inverse of that response.  Sometimes that inverse curve works well for fixing the problem, sometimes it doesn't, but in general it often works to clean things up.  Consider a flat measurement mic used for recording a subwoofer-heavy band in an overly reverberant bar mixed for the sensation of chest slam feel. In that situation the raw recording may well sound dull and bloated, but it would be 'accurate'.

By contrast I find that recordings of acoustic music in good rooms often benefit from boosting the bottom somewhat, even when using pressure omnis which remain flat to the bottom octave regardless of distance.  It may not be technically accurate to do that, but it sounds good in moderation, doesn't clutter things up with bloat, and often increases the nice long-reverberant ambient immerseve feel of acoustic music recordings made in good sounding rooms.  One aspect that makes halls for acoustic music 'good sounding' is longer reverberant times at low frequencies and shorter reverberant times as the frequency increases.  It's sort of the same thing and acoustically reinforces the bottom and heft of the music.  It also makes those rooms more difficult to use for music with PA amplified bass and drums, which do better when the reverb-time at low-frequencies is shorter.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #311 on: October 15, 2014, 04:34:53 PM »
Agreed. 

And I'll note that the room itself is one of those mechanical resonant systems.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline voltronic

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #312 on: October 15, 2014, 06:20:07 PM »
I've used CM3s to record speeches, choirs and piano, and found them to record a smooth, pleasing sound in each instance.  I don't have Schoeps to compare them with, but I have read others comment that higher end mics do give more details.  With amateur choirs generally, a little rounding off can be a good thing. 

Getting an enjoyable piano recording is not an easy task.   So many pianos are poorly maintained and placed in terrible rooms to start with.  A well tuned piano in a good room will reveal shortcomings in a microphone pretty quickly, IMO.

One of the reasons I bought them, and what I've come to really enjoy about using them, is that they have very good off-axis response and have less roll-off at distance than regular cardioids.  Because of these factors I've found them pretty easy to find a placement where you can get a good sound, even if they aren't going to grab Schoeps-like levels of detail.

And yes, piano recording is not easy, even on a full size concert grand that is perfectly maintained.  The one in my sample was a Steinway D, but it's suffered over 50 years of school abuse without anything really beyond a few yearly tunings, so it sounds pretty hollow and lifeless for an instrument of its size until you really drive it hard.
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.
- Gustav Mahler

Acoustic Recording Techniques
Team Classical
Team Line Audio
Team DPA

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #313 on: October 15, 2014, 07:45:21 PM »
Not sure where non-linearity entered the conversation.  Maybe diggity's comments about change of mic behavior with dynamics?  I don't see that happening with properly operating microphones until overload, or beneath the limits of their sensitivity, but I do find that to be the case (or maybe I just mis-characterizing it as such) acoustically down in the modal region of a room, which is what I was trying to get at.  The room seems to saturate at a certain high enough bass level.

One thing which is not linear is our hearing.  I hear distortions during loud sustained massed chorus sections which I know is in my ear.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline voltronic

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #314 on: October 15, 2014, 08:24:23 PM »
By contrast I find that recordings of acoustic music in good rooms often benefit from boosting the bottom somewhat, even when using pressure omnis which remain flat to the bottom octave regardless of distance.  It may not be technically accurate to do that, but it sounds good in moderation, doesn't clutter things up with bloat, and often increases the nice long-reverberant ambient immerseve feel of acoustic music recordings made in good sounding rooms.  One aspect that makes halls for acoustic music 'good sounding' is longer reverberant times at low frequencies and shorter reverberant times as the frequency increases.  It's sort of the same thing and acoustically reinforces the bottom and heft of the music.  It also makes those rooms more difficult to use for music with PA amplified bass and drums, which do better when the reverb-time at low-frequencies is shorter.

I would love to try this out, but 9 times out of 10 that I'm recording quiet music in a nice church or concert hall, there is significant A/C noise and I have to either do some noise removal or a steep high pass filter in post to knock it down.  The choir concert I posted samples of, I got lucky - the A/C was on off cycle for probably 3/4 of the concert, meaning we were sweating but most of the recording came out clean. 

Perhaps I could try a very gentle wide-Q low boost after applying the high pass filter, but I get good enough results after tweaking iZotope RX that I never felt the need.

I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.
- Gustav Mahler

Acoustic Recording Techniques
Team Classical
Team Line Audio
Team DPA

 

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