Taperssection.com

Gear / Technical Help => Battery Boxes, Preamps, Mixers, ADCs, and Processors => Topic started by: pmonk66 on December 19, 2007, 12:45:43 PM

Title: V3>702 Question?
Post by: pmonk66 on December 19, 2007, 12:45:43 PM
I am picking up a SD 702 end of the, and was wondering if putting a V3 in front of a 702 is worthwhile?
Title: Re: V3>702 Question?
Post by: T.J. on December 19, 2007, 01:47:18 PM
i'm assuming you are talking about going V3>analog>702, utilizing the V3's pre and the 702's A/D converter, and not V3>digi>702. doing the latter would only be using the 702 as a bit bucket. having run both a V3 and a 722, i can honestly say i prefer the pre-amp in the 722 paired with my mics. however, if you are looking for a more transparent recording, the V3 could be a good addition. i think most people consider the 722's pre-amp to have more punch and less transparent characteristics than the V3. i would try the pre's in the 722 and trust your ears. i thought i would never part with the V3 until i ran the 722 solo.
Title: Re: V3>702 Question?
Post by: F.O.Bean on December 19, 2007, 03:49:52 PM
I would keep the v3 since youre running Neumann's ;) I always loved the Neumann>Grace combo
Title: Re: V3>702 Question?
Post by: F0CKER on December 19, 2007, 05:00:08 PM
I am picking up a SD 702 end of the, and was wondering if putting a V3 in front of a 702 is worthwhile?

pmonk, I'd hold onto it and run a few comps, see what you like.  Don't part ways with the V3 just yet.  I've always run an external pre in front of my 722.  Not that I don't think the 722's pre is good, but I've always found it lacking to my ears.
Title: Re: V3>702 Question?
Post by: ts on December 19, 2007, 05:59:17 PM
I like it. And, I also like having the option of two flavors of preamps available to me.

what he said ;)
Title: Re: V3>702 Question?
Post by: ghellquist on December 19, 2007, 06:24:38 PM
It all depends.

I believe that you will find that the 7xx preamps likes it best when not run inte the red brick wall at 0dB. This is what they were designed for and where they in my ears do their best job. I always find that aiming for peaks at -12dB or even -20dB gives the best sound to my ears. It also gives a healthy margin for unforeseen things before clipping or the limiter starting to work if you preferr to have that in the circuit. Recording 24 bits with the excellent noise levels of the 7xx still gives lots of useable signal. It also means that you will probably want to postprocess and increase levels with a PC program or similar things. (My choice there is Samplitude) But then I record only acoustic music, choirs and symphony orchestras and such stuff which might be very different from what you do. In my world, no added coloring in the recording is what I go for. I have no second thoughts about mastering the material afterwards. In my case mastering generally means removing subsonic stuff below 20Hz, maybe a bit of EQ-ing to diminish the effect of bad rooms, removing the worst coughs or dropped things (Samplitude Pro has Spectral Cleaning that makes this a very viable option, some other programs has that as well). Depending on the sound I might elect to do a very slight compression, maybe a ratio of as little as 1.2 or 1.4. And finally of course setting decent levels for each song and finish off with a limiter to remove one or a few extreme peaks. Mastering and burning CD may take me maybe 20 minutes for a 1 hour concert. Or it might take me a few hours when I care to do it carefully.

My guess is that the V3 might behave differently up at the red limit. It might impart a certain amount of compression or even coloration up there which might be exactly what you want to have on your recordings. And if you want to have maximum levels without postprocessing that might be a better choice.

In the end my suggestion is to experiment a lot and learn to use the equipment to get the effect you want to have.

Gunnar
Title: Re: V3>702 Question?
Post by: Kevin Straker on December 21, 2007, 03:35:13 PM
Why doesn't someone do a mod on this thing? If it could sound like a psp2, that would be great. Sounding like an MP2, not so great.
Title: Re: V3>702 Question?
Post by: stevetoney on December 22, 2007, 08:55:52 AM
It all depends.

I believe that you will find that the 7xx preamps likes it best when not run inte the red brick wall at 0dB. This is what they were designed for and where they in my ears do their best job. I always find that aiming for peaks at -12dB or even -20dB gives the best sound to my ears.

Gunnar:

As a new owner of a 702 (3 shows under my belt with it) I'm curious about your comment.  What specifically is different about the sound when you peak at lower levels versus running levels into the red zone?

FWIW, for my first three shows I've been trying to peak with one or two red lights.  The sound is good, but if running lower were to take a slight bit of 'edge' off the sound, that would be a good thing to me.

Thanks
Title: Re: V3>702 Question?
Post by: ghellquist on December 22, 2007, 02:15:06 PM
There are two variations, with or without limiter. (Check the manual for turning on or off it). In either case, when you reach the "limit" the 7xx starts to sound, lets phrase it like this, less good.

The limiter is a life-saver and not any issue at all on very rarely occuring short burst, but if you run levels so high that the limiter is engaged more than very infrequently I start hearing artifacts. The limiter kicks in at less the -6dB, so one red light should really be the maximum to aim for. This is nothing really specific to the 7xx machines, my ears does not like limiters. Probably one reason I hate listening to modern pop on the radio, limited out of all proportion in order to "win" the loudness war.

Running smack into 0dB on the 7xx without limiter will create signals that cannot be converted to digital. The 7xx behaves decently as things go, but not really what you want to have.

In a pop concert setting,  recording PA, it might not be an issue either. The dynamic difference, weak to strong, is not really very high and there are typically limiting factors in how high sound levels can get from the speakers. And pop engineers tend to work smack against that level, so not much surprises to be expected. In my recordings, doing acoustice music without PA-s, the situation is different. Dynamics may differ from a single instrument playing barely audible to quite loud when 110 musicians all are doing their things. (No joke, I recorded Beethovens 9:th symphony this year, 110 musicians + 20 choir + organ) And even if you believe you have it all covered, often there is one or to places where the percussionist does their best to really clear the ears of the audience peaking well above normal levels on the recording stuff.

One issue is that some of the tapers started back in 16bit days, when you had to maximise levels in order to get a useable recording. The habit than was to run smack into 0dB as the preamps were designed to handle that. One advantage was that the recordings were loud without any postprocessing. The V3 might be desiged to nicely handling "overs", and perhaps even adding some extra euphonics at those levels. Nothing wrong with that, a pleasing end result is what counts, and taste is individual.

My message though is that when changing euipment you have to investigate how it behaves and how to use its strenghts and avoid its weaknesses.

A small note, one red light for peaks is -12 dB on the 7xx, well within the good zone according to my ears.

Gunnar
Title: Re: V3>702 Question?
Post by: carlbeck on December 23, 2007, 08:39:33 AM
Why doesn't someone do a mod on this thing? If it could sound like a psp2, that would be great. Sounding like an MP2, not so great.

I think Doug looked at it back in the day & didn't have much to work with or no room, something to that effect.
Title: Re: V3>702 Question?
Post by: dennisrtyler on December 23, 2007, 10:04:28 AM
Why doesn't someone do a mod on this thing? If it could sound like a psp2, that would be great. Sounding like an MP2, not so great.

I think Doug looked at it back in the day & didn't have much to work with or no room, something to that effect.

quote from Doug

"The  SD700 series boxes are fatally flawed as there is  no room or extra power to work with."
Title: Re: V3>702 Question?
Post by: Lil Kim Jong-Il on December 23, 2007, 12:08:36 PM
quote from Doug

"The  SD700 series boxes are fatally flawed as there is  no room or extra power to work with designed such that there is no wasted room or unused power capacity."

FTFD

I have great respect for Doug, however the choice of words is poor.  A design that fully utilizes a set of constrained resources is highly efficient, not fatally flawed.



edit for spelling
Title: Re: V3>702 Question?
Post by: rasta on December 24, 2007, 10:12:31 AM
If you were to run a 702 or take the HD out of a 722 and run CF would that not give room for mods?
Title: Re: V3>702 Question?
Post by: Brian Skalinder on December 24, 2007, 11:13:09 AM
quote from Doug

"The  SD700 series boxes are fatally flawed as there is  no room or extra power to work with designed such that there is no wasted room or unused power capacity."

I have great respect for Doug, however the choice of words is poor.  A design that fully utilizes a set of constrained resources is highly efficient, not fatally flawed.

All depends on the context, which we don't really know.  Knowing Doug's mod work fairly well, I suspect the context is something like:  is the SD700 series a good candidate for modification?  In which case the comment makes perfect sense, and doesn't necessarily contradict your (IMO appropriate) assessment, as well.
Title: Re: V3>702 Question?
Post by: it-goes-to-eleven on December 30, 2007, 10:42:09 AM
quote from Doug

"The  SD700 series boxes are fatally flawed as there is  no room or extra power to work with."

Very funny/odd choice of words, "flawed".  That is just limited thinking, IMHO. As pointed out, the 702 has quite a bit of room due to no drive. And it would be fairly trivial to machine a new cover plate that provides as much room as necessary for batteries, circuits or whiskey (flask mod, anyone?).

I assume the typical Oade mod would add his gain stage to the 7xx line mode (raising the min gain).  But I'd never give up my stock line-in for a mod line-in unless it could be easily switched back to stock in the field with no loss of performance. It would be a challenge to maintain the low noise because any mod would tend to lengthen the extremely short input path.
Title: Re: V3>702 Question?
Post by: pmonk66 on January 02, 2008, 10:50:22 PM
So, I ran the V3 (analog) into the SD 702 twice this weekend (State Theater and Sullivan Hall), and me likes what I am hearing.