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Author Topic: What to do with onstage access?  (Read 5500 times)

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Offline Mr.Fantasy

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What to do with onstage access?
« on: July 30, 2008, 06:01:51 PM »
I have several local bands here in Tulsa that I have been taping....

I am friends with some of the players, but all of them are very cool people. These guys just love being recorded...

So I am sure that they would let me setup onstage....

....but I wouldn't really know what to do with that positioning.

I am a newbie taper, and most shows I tape I setup as close to center and somewhere between, across all the different venues I have to adapt for, as far as 200" (Cain's Ballroom soundboard distance) and as close as 15-20 (for the Bar nextdoor to the Cains) and most other venues in town are in between that range......with the exception of the Brady Theater which would be more like 300" from the stage to the middle of the upper deck.....

But aside from that long bit of digression....

Some band will let me tape onstage, so what should I do to take advantage of that positioning.....????

Should I be trying to hook into the soundboard at these venues? Like some of the bars in town have established stages and some have actual soundboards. Should I be seeking a patch?


Please shed a little light if you can....I am obviously in need of direction....
"I read somewhere that 77 percent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 percent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves" ---Jerry Garcia

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Offline Unitmonster

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Re: What to do with onstage access?
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2008, 07:51:25 PM »
Personally, the ideal onstage setup is omni or sub-card element in xy or ortf pattern at the stage lip (I have a specific stand for onstage/stage lip that goes about 4' high), mixed with a soundboard feed.  The SBD feed can even be mono if need be since you'll have a great stereo separation from the mics. THe SBD feed will compensate from anything that isn't coming through loud enough on stage.   

Another approach is to have mics set up on opposite corners of the stage either pointing at the band, again ideally mixed with a bit of SBD signal.

Others might have different ideas though. And it will depend a great deal on the style of music.  With acoustic jazz for example, you may not need a sbd signal at all. 

Noticed that you have Nak mics.  Not so sure how onstage would come out with cardioids. They might be too directional, but I've never tried, so I'm not sure.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 07:57:10 PM by Unitmonster »
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Offline Mr.Fantasy

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Re: What to do with onstage access?
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2008, 08:52:54 PM »
Thanks and +t for your response.

I have Omni caps in addition to the cards that I normally use...


Actually I have been dieing to find an opportunity to use them....but from what I had heard they were only good for acoustic guitar performances, which I don't seem to find that much of...

I guess I don't have a mental picture or anything, but aren't most soundboards at the back of the house?

How do you get SBD signal as well?

I guess I would have to.... A. Pickup another recorder to capture the SBD, and use my R09 onstage, then mix together?

or option B. ????
"I read somewhere that 77 percent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 percent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves" ---Jerry Garcia

Mics: Modified Nak 300's, Line Audio CM4
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Offline Unitmonster

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Re: What to do with onstage access?
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2008, 08:58:58 PM »
yep. a 2nd recorder is the easiest bet.  maybe you can borrow a deck from a friend or something to try it out and see if you like the process. THe mixing process afterwards is quite painstaking (you'll find tons of info on it here), but the end result can be fantastic.
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Offline heyitsmejess

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Re: What to do with onstage access?
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2008, 02:33:46 AM »
if you have omnis, run them using the healey method about 4' high onstage...you will be able to point where everything is when played back....sounds great in headphones as well as normal stereo playback.
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Offline Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)

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Re: What to do with onstage access?
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2008, 03:19:30 AM »
Depending on the venue you may be able to run the on stage mic feed back to the SBD through the house snake. Might make it easier to monitor both recordings.

Better yet run them both into a 4 channel recorder so both sources are on the same clock. Much easier post processing that way. If you plan on doing a lot of these types of recordings (the kind where you can do whatever you want), a 4 channel recorder might be a wise investment.

I frequently record at a venue that pretty much lets me do whatever I want. I plan on upgrading to a R-44 so I can run my mics on the stage and take a feed from the board.
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Offline halleyscomet8

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Re: What to do with onstage access?
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2008, 03:27:14 AM »
i am really proud of this one i ran subcards (could have used omnis) split about 5 feet. they were about 3-4 feet high. i ran the mics through the snake back to the board> r4. i also ran the sbd > r4 back there too. download the flacs and listen with headphones :o
16 bit
http://www.archive.org/details/bonerama2008-07-10.matrix.flac16

24 bit
http://www.archive.org/details/bonerama2008-07-10.matrix.flac24



my shows on the archive: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/halleyscomet8
And, yes, I know I suck about getting stuff circulated.  ;)

Offline Mr.Fantasy

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Re: What to do with onstage access?
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2008, 03:47:45 PM »
So what program do people use for mixing two sources, that were not recorded on the same box?

I think I could get two R-09's....but I still have my doubts as to how my R09 would do with a SBD feed....thoughts?

And this "snake"....is this a literal cord on the floor? Check with sound guy to find out?

Is it better to be friends with the artist or with the soundman?

Because it seems that while I would have the okay from the band, I would have to be somewhat in the way of the soundman...

Where to people go to learn this stuff professionally?
"I read somewhere that 77 percent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 percent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves" ---Jerry Garcia

Mics: Modified Nak 300's, Line Audio CM4
P48/Pres: PS2
Decks: Edirol R-09

easy jim

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Re: What to do with onstage access?
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2008, 03:57:22 PM »
Is it better to be friends with the artist or with the soundman?

It is definitely best to be friends with both  ;)  Whether or not the band says it is cool, do not expect to be able to run through the house snake if the sound eng. is not cool with it (and ask nicely).  FWIW, most engineers wil not want you anywhere near their gear if they think you're do not know about it and may mess things up.  So, if you're not cozy with the engineer and/or recording for the band, I wouldn't even ask.

The snake is a giant composite cable of multiple lines/channels (virtually always XLR for this purpose) that routes all the inputs from the input box on stage and ends up as outputs back at the SBD.  To patch through the snake, if there are a couple extra lines, you would plug your mics into the input box on stage and remove the output side from the SBD and patch that into your mic pre/recorder (2 sets of XLR cables will be needed for this - one for mics -> input box and one for snake output -> mic pre/recorder).

Offline Unitmonster

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Re: What to do with onstage access?
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2008, 03:58:56 PM »
So what program do people use for mixing two sources, that were not recorded on the same box?

I think I could get two R-09's....but I still have my doubts as to how my R09 would do with a SBD feed....thoughts?

And this "snake"....is this a literal cord on the floor? Check with sound guy to find out?

Is it better to be friends with the artist or with the soundman?

Because it seems that while I would have the okay from the band, I would have to be somewhat in the way of the soundman...

Where to people go to learn this stuff professionally?

1.  Most decent audio editing software (Samplitude, Cool Edit/Adobe Audition, etc.) will do it.
2.  R-09 should work.  May need a pair of attenuators depending on the feed you get (see the SBD taping FAQ here)
3.  The snake is the box onstage that carries all of the instrument signals back to the SBD.  Looks like a 16/24/36 or whatever xlr plug box with a big cable coming out.
4.  I've had both situations.  If you're friends with the artist just make sure you introduce yourself to the soundman, ask permission, be there plenty early so as not to be rushing around just before show-time and try not to get in the way or be asking the soundman for a bunch of help.
5. People learn about it in Recording Arts/Sound Engineering school, but a lot of people here are also self-taught.  75% of what you need to know you for onstage recording can find by reading through this site. The other 25% is learning by doing (I'm not saying you'll become pro this way, but that you'll be able to pull it off).
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Offline fUNKYbret

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Re: What to do with onstage access?
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2008, 04:11:18 PM »
i am really proud of this one i ran subcards (could have used omnis) split about 5 feet. they were about 3-4 feet high. i ran the mics through the snake back to the board> r4. i also ran the sbd > r4 back there too. download the flacs and listen with headphones :o
16 bit
http://www.archive.org/details/bonerama2008-07-10.matrix.flac16

24 bit
http://www.archive.org/details/bonerama2008-07-10.matrix.flac24

Dave, this recording rules my face.  I'm diggin' the pics too.  You should upload that first pic to the archive.  I just started putting a rig pic up with a few of my recordings and I think it really adds to the whole rig description and location.  Sorry for the thread hi-jack.  +t for on-stage recording!
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Offline Unitmonster

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Re: What to do with onstage access?
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2008, 04:33:51 PM »
Here's a really amazing onstage+sbd matrix that I patched out of many years ago:

http://www.archive.org/details/dtb2001-07-23.mtx.flac

(Onstage AKG414 omni, split 10 feet, run through the snake)

If only all recordings sounded this good...
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stevetoney

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Re: What to do with onstage access?
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2008, 05:36:46 AM »
I don't have alot of experience taping bands up close.  BUT, I have watched the pros.  Sickrick is the sound engineer for the Codetalkers and runs nightly Live On Location (or whatever it's called) for people to buy a copy of the performance minutes after it's finished.  I know from personal experience (I've both recorded Codetalkers and bought Ricks CDs) that Rick's recordings are FANTASTIC and couldn't sound better...course he does use some sick Neumann LD mics to record the stage lip!

What he does is run a pair of mics stage lip in ORTF through a V3.  He also records two other channels into the SBD.  He does it on a 744 so the clocks are matched, but it can be done with two non-matched sources (two R-09s) without much effort...just takes time and software.  You may need to synch the two sources song-by-song but again that's just time and not hard to do at all, for example, in Adobe Audition.  If you're lucky, you may only need to do it once for one of the complete recordings...

Then you need to decide how much of the stage lip and how much of the SBD is included in the final mix.  Just goof around with varying degrees of mix and decide which sounds best!

If that sounds like too much effort, my second personal favorite sound is stage lip ORTF, in the DFC, with cardiods.  Gives awesome stereo imaging, perfect mix of band and audience, and of course crystal clear recording quality.

Offline stantheman1976

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Re: What to do with onstage access?
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2008, 02:56:54 PM »
You may need to synch the two sources song-by-song but again that's just time and not hard to do at all, for example, in Adobe Audition.  If you're lucky, you may only need to do it once for one of the complete recordings...

With two digital sources you should never have to split either.  Use something like Sony Vegas where you can visually stretch/shrink one to match the other.  I THINK Wavelab can do it this way also.  Using analog sources that can vary in timing should be the only occasion you'd have to split into segments.

stevetoney

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Re: What to do with onstage access?
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2008, 04:20:16 PM »
You may need to synch the two sources song-by-song but again that's just time and not hard to do at all, for example, in Adobe Audition.  If you're lucky, you may only need to do it once for one of the complete recordings...

With two digital sources you should never have to split either.  Use something like Sony Vegas where you can visually stretch/shrink one to match the other.  I THINK Wavelab can do it this way also.  Using analog sources that can vary in timing should be the only occasion you'd have to split into segments.

Good comment.  I personally agree as I've never had to split them up, but people that I know have said that they had to do it song-by-song...not sure why though. 

BTW, as mentioned previously Audition does this very nicely. 

What I do is use the stretch/shrink function.  First I make sure there are no dropouts in either recording by comparing the timing of both recordings side-by-side.  They should be relatively parallel without any step changes in timing between the two.  Obviously, if there's a step timing change, then you probably have a drop out.

After confirming that there are no drop-outs (or if there are, fixing the timing of one of the sources to match the other) I check the exact timing of a specific event near the beginning of the sources...say a drum hit.  It needs to be a single point source of sound so that you can get a precise timing measurement.  Note the time of this event on both recordings.

Then go to the end of the show and do the same thing.

Figure out EXACTLY the amount of elapsed time that occurrs between the two points on both recordings.  If there's a slight difference (which there probably is) then you have to stretch or shrink one of the sources so that the overall timing between those two points is exactly the same on both recordings.  Obviously, you want to use a ratio that makes both the exact same length...if you find this function in Audition, you'll be able to figure out how to do it.  It's not hard to figure out.

Then after stretching/shrinking one of the sources, go to the beginning of each recording and select another EXACT point where both sources will start.  Trim one or both tracks so that they both start at precisely the same nano-second.  Obviously, since both tracks are now the exact same length between the beginning and end, they should match precisely after this step.

OK, now load both tracks into the multi-track view of Audition so that they lay parallel to each other and play both at the same time, making sure that both are playing at about the same volume percentage.  You can mute one at a time, mute them both, or play them both simultaneously in this view.  However, in this case you want to play them simultaneously and confirm that both tracks are aligned properly by listening at 10 minute intervals throughout the show.  If the tracks diverge from each other, it will be obvious because the show will start sounding more and more reverb-y...the more the tracks diverge (the later in the recording) the more reverb you'll hear.

Obviously, if you hear any reverb, then there's some more work to do to adjust the length of one or the other sources...the goal is to have the match exactly so that there is no reverb at all.

If you don't hear any reverb, it's time to decide what percentage of each track you want to be able to hear in the final mix.  I just goof around with the them and listen to the mix until I find a combination that I feel sounds best.

Viola!
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 04:25:59 PM by tonedeaf »

 

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