Topic: Advice on bluegrass "studio" recording.

[Nick in Edinboro]

A close friend of mine has a little bluegrass project together and called me to help record their second "album"... said I'd basically just be hitting record, etc.  Ended up doing a lot of the mixing behind the board and had a ton of fun!  But, alas, I don't know what I am doing!!

He had everything setup when I got there, here's what it looked like.  He said he put the instruments across from one another in order to reduce the bleeding into other channels.. Valid option?  Any other way you would set it up?



We're setup in a large converted 3 car garage, well heated and insulated but we have no acoustic panels to seperate the instruments.  My friend did express interest in maybe doing some sort of 2x4 frame w/plywood walls to seperate the channels, anyone have any opinions/links to DIY studio sound treatments?  I'm totally n00b about this stuff.. I mentioned to him that pink sound insulation they sell at homedepot.

Running all the mics into a really nice 16 channel Mackie board.  They've been running this main outs into a shitty PC card into a shitty Compaq and directly into CEP.  I ran my UA-5 from the tape outs and into the JB3 for a better ADC to see if it makes a difference.

Any advice on stuff to try next time around as far as the setup goes?  Do the mics make a good fit for the instruments?  We're going to try and meet every wednesday and record some music.

Any good links for home studio advice/techniques/faqs/setup? 

I don't play music but man it'd be fun to have a studio in my basement for friends to play at..

Also, any advice on some of the post production stuff I should look into?  The raw stuff does sound really pretty good but I'm wondering what I might want to play with in CEP/Waves as I'm not sure what all the fun plugins/etc. actually do...  Needless to say my post production on my live stuff is only fade ins and outs..

[mmmatt]

Hey Nick,
I'm sure more people will jump in on this one, but I'll make my suggestions for you.  I don't do any studio stuff, other than recording myself (voice and guitar) in my living room, but I do record with a Mackie mixer quite a bit in the field, and I have studied this somewhat, so hopefully I will have some good info for you! 
     First off, I would plug the bass and anything else that has a pickup directly into the Mackie through a "HI Z" Input.  If the Mackie in question doesn't have HI Z then your ua5 does and you may want to put that in front of the mixer.  When doing this make sure that you aren't spanning more than 20' of cable between the instrument and the mixer.  Instruments are unbalanced and anything over a 20' cable run may cause some noise through the lines.  The way to get around this is to use a "DI" box, which takes the HI Z from the instrument and converts it to a Low Z balanced signal.   The exceptions to this would maybe be the guitars as I personally feel they would sound best in front of the octava's.  The banjo would too though, and not too many banjos have internal pickups. 
     I assume you are not using amps on the instruments, and you shouldn't unless the "color" of the amplifier is desired.  With bluegrass I assume you are just looking for an clean acoustic sound, so effects other than a little bit of EQ is most likely not an issue. Make sure that the musicians make an effort to keep a close and consistent distance from the mics.  Close will help the bleed, and if they are moving around too much you will get a "wa wa" sound as they move.  When Micing the instruments experiment on both micing the sound hole and the neck.  This may be especially true on the banjo as the sound of the body and off the neck are going to be way different.  Have someone move the mics while you monitor to get the sound you want.  Best  may be using 2 mics, or internal pickups plus a mic.  In many live sound applications I've noticed engineers using a "knee high" mic in addition to internal pickups to change the color/image of the sound when a particular band member is soloing.  In this case the musician moves up to the knee high when they’re fixin' to jam.  With all, you should experiment with placement.  Don't worry about setting up a stereo config like we do in the field if you use 2 mics... experiment with it if you want but I doubt it will make a big difference.
     As for the sound chambers... If you are going to separate the musicians it will be especially tough for them to play "together" without being able to see one another.  However if you build some walls, don't worry about the "sound insulation" available at stores... it's kind of like a cd-r vs a cdr-m... it doesn't really make a difference.  In fact, sound batts are usually R-11 and you can get (and should  get)  r-13 batts.  Better than that though would be lining the interior of your framed wall with loosely draped old blankets or comforters.  That will deaden the hell out of the chamber.  You could use some exterior foam insulation (tuff-R) on the outside of the chamber for a little additional deadening from the other side.  Don't use the tough-r on the inside though because it will reflect the sound due to it's hard shell exterior.  Although it will make it sound like a room that is more "live" and that may be good too.  That would emulate a bit of a reverb effect, but it may be easier to ad a touch of that in post so it can be evenly spread over the entire recording.
     Well that is all that is coming to me now!  Just so you know I am jealous as hell.  I would love the opportunity to do this.  It would be a lot of fun.  I am anxious to hear what other tips and suggestions you get.

Matt

[Nick in Edinboro]

Matt, awesome suggestions

As per the bass, I should've specified it's a beatiful old Kay stand up bass... not an electric.  All instrumental, no amps (although we can but trying to avoid feedback/extra color)--I can't remember what he used to mic it tho, might've been yet another SM57 positioned near one of the f holes.

The banjo we have been mic'ing near the body... Barry (the banjo man) plays a real funky clawhammer style that is really awesome to hear but somewhat hard to manage because the dynamics can really be all over the place depending on how hard he claws.. maybe we'll try and mic him on the neck to see what it's like.

Guitars we've just been using one mic on the sound hole.  Fiddles we're doing with one mic overhead.

As per the sound walls I was thinking something akin to the Grateful Dawg movie where David and Jerry are in their home studio and have waist high walls they're sitting behind.. kinda cool.  I doubt we'll ever "get there" with this project though!

[Nick in Edinboro]

BTW, I'll try and post some mp3's of what we got last night  

The girls on the fiddles are only 14 and 16 I think.. Suzuki trained and they can WAIL old appalacha hoe-down style.  Lots of nice waltz and old time fiddle tunes were recorded...

[heath]

i'll chime in when i have some free time to think...probably tomorrow. 

if you've listened to the raisinhill album, that was an acoustic standup bass that he plays.  We got some killer tracks off that thing.

h

[mmmatt]

BTW, I'll try and post some mp3's of what we got last night  

The girls on the fiddles are only 14 and 16 I think.. Suzuki trained and they can WAIL old appalacha hoe-down style.  Lots of nice waltz and old time fiddle tunes were recorded...

Please get us some samples, I'm sure many would be interested!  Stand up bass certainly makes a difference... would be nice to have 6 or 8 high end condensors would'nt it!  I remeber the upright bass in my old HS jazz band used to use some dampners in the f-holes before micing it... they were like silicon tubes mabe 1" thick if I remeber correctly... I've never seen it since, but I think the idea was to make the bass a little tighter.  With a stand up bass I think you will want to really play with your mics... you know you could also just try an ambient recording of the whole group with a stereo config... you might be surprised at how good it can sound, then just mic the vox seperately.  If the musicians are spaced so they ballance well it could be sweet.  I'm sure heath will give you some good suggestions... he's the real deal, and I just play around.
     As for your fiddle players, I think that is very cool.  There is a local band here (Milwaukee area) that is a celtic/bluegrass band.  As a whole I don't think the world of them, but there is a 16 yr-old guitar player, and a 15 yr-old mando player that just absolutly rip.  They made me think of some of the stuff that Jeff Austin and Chris Castino did last year.  I actually gave them a few recordings of jacc so they could maybe see some different directions to go.  They will most likely be my first multitrack project.  I just love to see the younger generation grab ahold of the bluegrass scene... helps me believe it isn't a passing fancy and will continue to develop like it has in the past few years.

Matt

[Nick in Edinboro]

So far I haven't been all to happy with what I'm hearing now that I have the files on my computer.. Some tracks have way too much guitar, others too much fiddle.  Seemed to sound better at the session.  It's so tough to get the levels right when your sitting in the same room as the band and don't have good isolation!


A few tracks do sound pretty good though.  Guess that's the story, hit or miss for the n00b.

Attempt at attaching small mp3 sample, we shall see if it goes.

[Nick in Edinboro]

I've uploaded some full song mp3's to moepics.com... will only be able to keep them on for a day or two before the bandwidth server cop comes lookin'..

Cowgirls 3 meg-ish
Tower City 2 meg-ish
Some bluegrass tune 2 meg-ish

Trying to setup IIS on my machine here so I can host them locally but no-ip.com ain't happy with my settings yet. I'll figger it out soon enough.

Sad that these don't sound as good as I thought    But, looking at it in the light that this was the first time I was ever involved with mixing a board and had no instruction I guess they're not terrible. 

I just ran these ones through the L2 compressor a bit..

[mmmatt]

A LOT of tallent in that garage NIck... goes for you too!  I'm very impressed!  Not perfect, true, but very, very good.  If you want perfection I think you need to multitrack, but for a 2chan master it is quite good.
     I listened to all 3, and my favorite was "Tower City"... the vox and the harmonies are just beautiful.  I assume you want opinions so I will give you mine.  Please remember I am no authority, but just another untrained ear like yourself, and these are just my opinions. 
     In the cowgirl song I think you need to take some of the "shril" out of the violins.  Play with your eq/ mic settings.  To my ears, the fiddles should be a little warmer. Good job however, of bringing it up for the solo part... that was a very smooth transition. I would have liked to have heard them a little more in the rest of the mix though.

On the bluegrass song, the vocals wern't quite where they need to be.  They should be more upfront in the mix and the banjo should be back a bit.  His part is less melodic, and you want to hide him a little in that one.  It sorta seemed like he was stumbling a bit.  The guitars should be more upfront.

As for tower city, the vox really grabbed me so everything else was OK!  The only thing I really noticed on that one was that the lower frequencies of the guitar(s) seemed to overlap the bass and bleed.  Not mic to mic I don't think, but just a certain frequency overlapping and being brought out too much.  I'm guessing if you brought down the bass eq on the guitar(s) you would loose this.  A 1 or 2 db change can make a big difference... just a dab will do ya!  Use your ears.  It might have also come from the vocalists breath as she/they were singing.  That is what a "pop filter" will help with if I'm not mistaken.

Over all.  I would try to get the sound of that sweet upright a little more defined... tweak the eq but try to still keep a natural, fat sound.  The soundstage isn't overly well defined.  I would like to hear it with both guitars stereo mic'd, but alternately pan one left and one right.  You don't have to go hard left/right, but maybe a little more than they are now.  They blend together almost too well for my ears.  The image as a wholeseemed to be a little heavier on the left.  Don't trust your meters 100% in that regard, because different frequencies can be heard at different levels but as a whole they get reported to the meter as something altogether different.  Use your ears.  I would tinker with the knobs a bit to widen the soundstage some.  Put the bass in the middle though.  You may also try to bring up the presence on the guitars a bit.  In bluegrass music there are not drums, so the strings have to be more percussive.  That is mostly the players, but if they are playing that way, you should try to bring it out some.

I certainly feel for you on the whole monitoring thing... try it in a loud club!!!  Also, when you listen to this stuff over and over and over your brain starts to turn to mush, so give yourself a break between "sessions" when doing your post work.  It's like when doing the "pepsie challange" they always give you a cracker between the cup of pepsi and the cup of coke... clense your pallet with a good pro studio recording through your phones between post work sessions, or even between songs as you are laying down the tracks with the band.  I think a baseline is a good way to keep your head and ears straight.

Great job nick... big +T (in 12 I think!)

Matt

[Busman Audio]

Nice job for your first mix and your first experience with a mixer.

I like tower city it nice and warm the guitar has nice detail and the bass is well represented. The vocals sound great.

Some bluegrass tune was a little hard to listen to with the banjo struggling so much. like mmmmatt said if the banjo was set back in the mix that would help. vocals were drown out a little too much and the bass was just not in the mix. Still not bad when you have no chance to remaster the separate tracks.

cowgirls was ok but again a little too much banjo (just barely) the vocals had a lot of breath noise which isn't your fault.

Great job overall keep working with them whenever they get together to master mixing them. I record everything when I'm jamming with anyone just to play with mic techniques and mixing.

+T for your first mix

[heath]

Nick,

I've got some ideas.  We should talk.  If you want some help, I'd love to come up on a weekend and try some things out.  I could bring my protools rig and do a nice multitrack that we could mix down...  If not, I at least have some suggestions for instrument mic'ing. 

H

[BJ]

Nick,

I've got some ideas.  We should talk.  If you want some help, I'd love to come up on a weekend and try some things out.  I could bring my protools rig and do a nice multitrack that we could mix down...  If not, I at least have some suggestions for instrument mic'ing. 

H

heath/nick, IF you do go up and help, or just help through email/pm/phone whatever, will you post the overall synopsis of what you do/did, as I have been awaiting heaths comments since the thread was posted.  I think we all would like to see what heath says.  mmatt made some good comments as well...I hope more people post too.  I gave it a listen, but as an overall newb, esp to multitracking(NEVER TOUCHED ONE...even in my band..the other guitar player played with the sbd).  gotta love this board...the information and help is outstanding!!! +t's all around, and again in 12!

[heath]

you got it.  Once I collect my thoughts and get them all down on paper, I'll post.  It's usually a feel thing with me when I set up to track.  Not necessarilly a 100% plan.  My mic choices change often, and what I initially thought was going work gets scrapped.  Regardless, I can at least put together a "starting point" post and can update it as I change my mind 

[Nick in Edinboro]

I've got some ideas. We should talk. If you want some help, I'd love to come up on a weekend and try some things out. I could bring my protools rig and do a nice multitrack that we could mix down... If not, I at least have some suggestions for instrument mic'ing.

Heath, that is an amazing offer!!!!!

I think they would be so excited to have you come up and play around but it'd have to be a coordinated effort so we can get all the band members there and such  

The only problem is accomidations... since I live with my parents (*blush*) it'd be hard to have you crash here... I am looking to buy a house but can't do anything until the weather is decent enough to permit moving.

However, the guys house we play at (one of the guitarists) has a huge beautiful house (he owns a framing gallery, apparently makes gobs of money... also the bass player and coordinater of all this recording owns a nice house in the sticks and is very cool and a lot more "kind"....

If anything, we can take advice now, and once I have better accomidations in the spring we can set some time to do a *real good* recording and have you up for a day or two...

Thanks a ton everyone for all the advice...    I played around with EQ stuff last night but can't seem to get it to make the right amount of difference...  it's either that the changes seem so subtle that I can't hear the changes and then I have to make them so drastic that it sounds like ass..  I think perhaps I'm just moving the wrong channels and/or too many channels at once.

[BJ]

Nick, do you have good monitors for the mixing??  I think that will make a HUGE difference when trying to mix it.  or possibly good heaphones and pre-amp... as the subtle changes that you make will probably stand out more.  Great job and good luck on this whole project..I envy you guys a ton...this sounds so exciting.  I wish I was doing this stuff long ago when I was actually playing in a band.   

[mmmatt]

That is way cool heath... do definately post.  If I'm off base on some of my comments/suggestions please don't feel like you can't call me out.  I admit I have almost no field experience, and I'm working off of theroy.  +T heath for doing a great thing!

Matt

[Nick in Edinboro]

Razorback, good point...

I've been using some Grado SR-80's as my "monitors" consist of some 2.1 midgrade computer speakers

I could burn CD's and put them on my home listening system but it's an involved step and doesn't allow the tweaking on the fly...

We're far from high class when it comes to this operation   Ghetto style all the way.


Matt thatnks too for all the interest.. really appreciate all your feedback.  Tower City was written by Lori, the main female vocalist you hear...  I think it even has the lines "show us your boobs" at some points in the song   Kinda funny.. it was the first time they really played it as a group as it's pretty new.

[heath]

you really won't need to worry too much about separation, but if you want to have makeshift gobos, use some type of structure and moving blankets.  You can get these pretty cheap (i actually stole like 7 of them from Uhaul--they were in the back of a trailer I rented for moving, and I kept them).  Old matresses help deaden as well, and you can usually find them at goodwill for like $5.  Regardless, it's not crucial.

Upright bass can be tricky to master.  If the artist has any sort of electronic pickup, that can make things really easy.  I am going to assume the player in your setup does not have one, and that your only option is mic'ing.  First off, keep the mics for the upright within about a foot of the sound source.  I, for one, don't like too much "room" in a bass track.  It can lead to muddy tracks.  We can always add reverb or room tone later.  Ideally, use a 2 mic setup on an upright.  I large diapragm condensor just outside the f-hole would be the first mic, and the second can be either a small diaphragm condensor or another large diaphragm just above the bridge, aimed towards the hole to your liking (try experimenting with different angles until you get the tone you like). 

Acoustic guitars can be mic'd SO MANY different ways, but what I have typically has results with is the following:
one condenser about a foot away from the guitar aimed where the neck and body meet and also towards the hole, without being pointed directly at it...I find that micing the hole leads to a very boomy guitar, which while occassionally desireable isn't always the most flattering tone.  I also like to put another mic aimed towards the bridge (again, about a foot away).  By playing with the mix between these 2 mics, you can achieve a nice sound.  If you only end up with one mic on the guitar, go with the first placement (where the neck and body meet).

I have never had the opportunity to mic a fiddle, but I got this from another enigneer, and it makes sense to me:
Violin / Fiddle: recommended Neumann U-87, Neumann KM-184, AKG C-460B

If you want a bluegrass / country fiddle sound with lots of bite, place the mic directly
above the bridge about 8" - 10" away.  The smoother the sound desired, the farther away
the mic should be - up to 3 or 4 feet away if necessary and the more off-axis.  I won't use
anything but a condenser on violin.


I have also never mic'd a banjo, but from what I hear, a 57 (or a condeser) aimed at the drum head should provide adequate results. 

What are you using for vocal mics?  How are these positioned? 

As I change my mind on mic'ing techniques, I'll re-post...It's really a feel thing.  Place a mic, go back to listening position, if you don't like how it sounds, change angle/distance/mic, repeat. 



As far as me helping you out...I'd really like to try some things (like fiddle and banjo micing).  My only necessities for an overnight stay would be a couch where I can throw a sleeping bag (although a bed would certainly be better).  Let me know...it's not that far for me to drive up there...

h

[Nick in Edinboro]

Heath, awesome.

He does have a pickup for the bass.. but the amp he has is a big POS.  Old electric bass cabinet with a guitar head frankenstiened onto it (ghetto again!).

I'm not sure what the vocal mics are...  They just looked like any other vocal mic I've seen (black, round globe top ).    I can take inventory next week for a better idea.  We only have 10 mics, just enough... they were using some shatty cards ($99 and paid too much) for the violins before I brought the oktavas last time.. then the handful of sm57's. 

I'd imagine they have money to spend if we can get some pointers on what to get thats worth the money...

I can get you crash space like that for sure...  My accomidations at the rents house aren't too bad in that respect.. I have the whole basement to myself which consists of a living room (with futon and couch) and then my sleeping quaters.. we can def. make this work..!

[BJ]

if you give me ample notice(and i dont have a show), and would like to borrow anything, 393's, ua5, etc...just drop me a line...I can mail it up to you...i REALLY like the 393's/391's on an acoustic guitar....and that would give you a two mic option that heath was talking about...

[BobW]

Very nice !  +T  Fletcher at Mercenary has said several times that it's people who make great recordings, not equipment.
You are proving that.

My somewhat naive thoughts:

That female voice is great !  Players are tight.  Something in the banjo on last sample is off, mic'ing or pickin', not sure.
I like a contact mic on a banjo with a small mixer(S.D. ?) to a front LD, FWIW.  watch for reflections off the banjo head.
The bass is right, what did you mic it with ?

You need a little, not too much, reverb on the voice, it's noticeably dry, but sweet as an angel.
When you notice the reverb, it is too much. Go up until you hear it and back off a tiny bit.
Also, go dry at times for the contrast.

Are these folks signed anywhere ? (just curious)

[Nick in Edinboro]

Thanks for comments..

Ya, the reverb, we thought we'd add that in the post processing, although it's a lil' tough with 2 tracks to get it right

The bass I think was another sm57 but I'll find out next week.

We'll work on the panning ideas (one guitar left other right) as I think that's a good idea!

I moved the samples, you can find them on my new website   There's a picture up on there too of the band...
 - http://braintuba.no-ip.com

Not signed--just a fun project now.  They have played Blue Herron Fest and open for Donna The Buffalo sometimes.. that's about it.

[capnhook]

Hey Nick....I've got the Great Blue Heron recording from last year if you need it

[heath]

How's this coming Nick?

[Mojowill]

Am I missing something where's the hillbilly blowing into the XXX whiskey jug  

[mmmatt]

Am I missing something where's the hillbilly blowing into the XXX whiskey jug  

fricken' rockers!   

Yeah Nick... I've been wondering myself.  Any more samples?

Matt

[BJ]

Nick,
seeing as its been three weeks, I thought i would resurrect this old thread and check to see if there has been anything new going on...new mixes to share, experiences, problems...anything.  Hope to hear some more of it soon.

BJ

[heath]

Nick,
seeing as its been three weeks, I thought i would resurrect this old thread and check to see if there has been anything new going on...new mixes to share, experiences, problems...anything.  Hope to hear some more of it soon.

BJ

qft

[Nick in Edinboro]

My bad guys!!!  I didn't realize this had been bumped.. I don't frequent this forum too often, sticking mainly to open/yard sale/ and playback

They never invited me back   I dunno, apparently I suck? 

Bummed about it but what can you do?  Sucks..

[heath]

you must suck 

[BJ]

My bad guys!!!  I didn't realize this had been bumped.. I don't frequent this forum too often, sticking mainly to open/yard sale/ and playback

They never invited me back   I dunno, apparently I suck? 

Bummed about it but what can you do?  Sucks..

doh!  sorry to hear this...I was hoping to hear more...give them one of these from me...

::flippa::