Topic: Bassy recordings

[Biff]

Hello everyone.

I'd been taping stuff for a couple years using a Sony NHF800 MD, SP-BMC-3 Mics and a SPSB-6  battery box with roll off, but don't claim to be anything but a newbie still.

I've always come out with acceptable enough recordings, but since upgraded to a Edroil HR09 (the MD died) using the same mics and box, and it seems like I just can't get a recording that is not distorted with bass...

Any suggestions?

[Walstib62]

Are you using the bass roll-off? What freq.? You can usually reduce the bass in post with most audio programs. A lot of shows now-a-days have very powerful subs, particularly indoors.

[acidjack]

If you are getting actual distortion during parts of the music with heavy bass, your problem is not that your mics are picking up too much bass - it's that your mics (or preamp, or both) are being overloaded by high sound pressure levels (.i.e., you cannot fix that with bass rolloff).  Are you going line-in to the Edirol? If not, you should be.

If you simply mean, "my recordings have too much bass" - well, that's a subjective judgment, but the good news is, you can easily deal with it in post with a free program like Audacity, and that is what most here would recommend doing.

[stevetoney]

You also should understand that unity gain on the Edirol R09HR is someplace around the 40 setting (look in the early Team R09HR forum...detailed discussion there).  What that means is that when you set the R09 at 40 or above, the R09HR is adding gain to the signal that's being provided from the battery box.  The added R09HR gain may be what is causing your distortion, even if your levels on the R09HR during the show aren't peaking all that high. 

What I always tried to do when I owned an R09HR is to always record at or below the 40 setting.  If your overall levels are low, then look elsewhere to get your levels up to where they need to be, but not the level control on the R09HR.  You don't have a preamp, so that's not a solution for you (although that would be the best answer if you DID have a preamp).  Perhaps your mics or battery box have some settings you could tweek. 

In the end, you may just have to record with your levels peaking somewhat low (since you can't bring them up with the R09HR without exceeding unity) and then bump the levels up in post to where they need to be.  It's not the ideal situation, but certainly acceptable practice, especially since you're recording in 24bit and you can bump levels alot without any appreciable degradation in sound quality (although you do increase the noise floor using this method, but the R09HR is quiet to begin with).  For example, I had some R09HR recordings in the past that peaked at -20db or lower during the show and after adjusting them in post, they still sounded just fine.

PS:  If you can't get your levels high enough to satisfy your tastes, you might need to buy a preamp (e.g. Church Audio ST9100) to amplify the signal cleanly enough to get your levels up instead of just going with a battery box.

[Biff]

Are you using the bass roll-off? What freq.? You can usually reduce the bass in post with most audio programs. A lot of shows now-a-days have very powerful subs, particularly indoors.

Yes I am using the bass roll off. I've tried acouple different settings. The settings that have worked on the old equipment haven't "translated" over. I've set the bass roll off pretty high this last show I did.

If you are getting actual distortion during parts of the music with heavy bass, your problem is not that your mics are picking up too much bass - it's that your mics (or preamp, or both) are being overloaded by high sound pressure levels (.i.e., you cannot fix that with bass rolloff).  Are you going line-in to the Edirol? If not, you should be.

If you simply mean, "my recordings have too much bass" - well, that's a subjective judgment, but the good news is, you can easily deal with it in post with a free program like Audacity, and that is what most here would recommend doing.

Yes I am going with the line in.

No it is not something that I have been able to fix in post at all... I've never really had to do much post, I've downloaded Audacity and I will see if I can make anything work from there.  I've used nero wav editor in the past and I know forsure I can not do anything to fix it with that program.

You also should understand that unity gain on the Edirol R09HR is someplace around the 40 setting (look in the early Team R09HR forum...detailed discussion there).  What that means is that when you set the R09 at 40 or above, the R09HR is adding gain to the signal that's being provided from the battery box which may be causing your distortion, even if your levels aren't peaking all that high. 

What I always tried to do when I owned an R09HR is to always record at or below 40.  If your overall levels are low, then look elsewhere to get your levels up to where they need to be...you don't have a preamp, so that's not a solution for you (although that would be the best answer if you DID have a preamp).  Perhaps your mics or battery box have some settings you could tweek. 

In the end, you may just have to record with your levels peaking somewhat low (since you can't bring them up with the R09HR without exceeding unity) and then bump the levels up in post to where they need to be.  It's not the ideal situation, but certainly acceptable practice, especially since you're recording in 24bit and you can bump levels alot without any appreciable degradation in sound quality (although you do increase the noise floor using this method, but the R09HR is quiet to begin with).  For example, I had some R09HR recordings in the past that peaked at -20db or lower during the show and after adjusting them in post, they still sounded just fine.

This sounds like it could be very likely what my issue is. I just checked out what the input level was set at for the last show and it was 42...


Thank you all for your suggestions and comments.

[acidjack]

^^ I have no idea why using the R-09HR with level at 42 would cause distortion. Steve is right about the R-09 adding a little gain, but at 42?  I used it routinely between 40-60 and never had any issue...

[stevetoney]

^^ I have no idea why using the R-09HR with level at 42 would cause distortion. Steve is right about the R-09 adding a little gain, but at 42?  I used it routinely between 40-60 and never had any issue...

My thoughts too.  Sure seems like 42 shouldn't be a problem (FWIW, i usually ran mine around 30, but I had a preamp and my levels were peaking in a good range), but I'd say to stick with it and one of the above responses should get you close to your issue because they cover the gammut as far as what could be causing your issues.

[Biff]

^^ I have no idea why using the R-09HR with level at 42 would cause distortion. Steve is right about the R-09 adding a little gain, but at 42?  I used it routinely between 40-60 and never had any issue...

Its was not alot on the last show, it was slight, but enough to notice...

I'll take all the suggestions here and see what happens with the next show. 

[bugg100]

Why not post a 30 second - 1 minute sample in mp3 format here using Audacity?

[Church-Audio]

Hello everyone.

I'd been taping stuff for a couple years using a Sony NHF800 MD, SP-BMC-3 Mics and a SPSB-6  battery box with roll off, but don't claim to be anything but a newbie still.

I've always come out with acceptable enough recordings, but since upgraded to a Edroil HR09 (the MD died) using the same mics and box, and it seems like I just can't get a recording that is not distorted with bass...

Any suggestions?

Sounds like your mics are overloading... Cant handle the bass.....

[Biff]

Why not post a 30 second - 1 minute sample in mp3 format here using Audacity?

I'll try that when I am on the computer with the show on the HD

Hello everyone.

I'd been taping stuff for a couple years using a Sony NHF800 MD, SP-BMC-3 Mics and a SPSB-6  battery box with roll off, but don't claim to be anything but a newbie still.

I've always come out with acceptable enough recordings, but since upgraded to a Edroil HR09 (the MD died) using the same mics and box, and it seems like I just can't get a recording that is not distorted with bass...

Any suggestions?

Sounds like your mics are overloading... Cant handle the bass.....

Forgive my ignorance, but what can I do to fix that? Better microphones? something else?

[bugg100]

Complex question, put the sample up so you aren't just responding to our guesses!

[Biff]

Sorry I haven't had access to the main computer for a week.

Here is a sample of the last show I did:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=J84P9FC9

[bugg100]

no distortion, overloading or levels to high here. 

Just an accurate recording of a metal show with too much "room boom" as a choice by the engineers and the band. And the ability to feel the bass, just like Bevis and Butthead would want!

You should try to use a "high pass filter" in audacity to tame this some, if you don't like the effect. But I would also ask, is the bass really distorted or just not to your liking?  If it truly sounds distorted, check your playback or monitoring gear.

As far what worked with your older deck not working now, input impedences on the recorder do have some effect on the bass rolloff settings on battery boxes. This is just part of learning new gear!

[Biff]

Perhaps it is just me and I am being too harsh with a stealth audience recording.

I will mess around with Audacity as suggest and see what I come up with.

Thanks for your help bugg100

[Biff]

Ok so here is the newest one.

There seems to be a "rumble" I can't get rid of... perhaps it is just my hearing??

Are my microphones overloading??? How do I prevent this?

This was recorded in a tiny club. I was in front of the soundboard.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=WJWZ5T68

[admkrk]

i would call that the opposite of bassy, and say too tinny. the "rummble" is most likely just bad acoustics coupled with a limited dynamic range. it reminds me of my stereo with shot woofers, as in they didn't work.

that's entirely my opinion tho. 

[Shadow_7]

It could just be the noise floor.  Bass does build up in untreated rooms.  SPL levels can exceed mic specs.  If the waveform is flatlined and yet still not maxed, it's likely the mic.  You should at least look at the spectrum as it were.  Select a portion and Audacity -> Analyze -> Plot spectrum / sox wav.wav -n spectrogram, and other tools.  Mics have a natural proximity effect that boosts low end.  Maybe not your issue at your location, but the cheap stage mic, plus house system might amplify this tendency.  Is there a tile / wood floor / metal ceiling / concrete walls /   Not all venues are ideal.

[setboy]

I can't really hear any distortion on those recordings.

[bugg100]

So, what is the original posters playback system?

[fmaderjr]

As far what worked with your older deck not working now, input impedences on the recorder do have some effect on the bass rolloff settings on battery boxes. This is just part of learning new gear!

Good point. But depending on how different your recorder's input impedence is from the one the battery box is calibrated at, there can be a HUGE difference. Another reason why I never roll off with a battery box.

If battery boxes are still  calibrated for a 10 Kohm impedance (like my 10 year old SP's one), since the HR's line in impedance is 15 the roll off you get would be 10/15 of the amount listed in the battery boxes instructions for each setting. (For mic in on the HR which has an impedance of 30, you would get only 10/30 of the listed amounts, a really huge difference).

[Biff]

Sorry been away.

First the second file I posted was one I was messing with and I didn't realize. This is the master, untouched one.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=J84P9FC9

So, what is the original posters playback system?

I am playing back on stereo with Mission speakers. I am quite sure it is not blown sub woofers

It could just be the noise floor.  Bass does build up in untreated rooms.  SPL levels can exceed mic specs.  If the waveform is flatlined and yet still not maxed, it's likely the mic.  You should at least look at the spectrum as it were.  Select a portion and Audacity -> Analyze -> Plot spectrum / sox wav.wav -n spectrogram, and other tools.  Mics have a natural proximity effect that boosts low end.  Maybe not your issue at your location, but the cheap stage mic, plus house system might amplify this tendency.  Is there a tile / wood floor / metal ceiling / concrete walls /   Not all venues are ideal.

I have seemed to have the same issues within a club venue and arena venue.

[admkrk]

i didn't mean to say there was something wrong with your speakers. 

it still sounds pretty much the same to me, just that maybe you eq'd some of the low end out of it. i'd chalk that up to the room and say that there isn't a lot you can do about. take this show for example. everything is just mudded together like in yours. in a different venue it could sound a whole lot better. like this one from a month earlier.