Topic: First outdoor recording. Using cards or omnis?

[paytoplay]

I've been looking around the board for some clearence on this but I didnt manage to be any wiser.

On friday, Im recording a rock concert in an outdoor area pretty similar to the ones on festivals.
I have so far only recorded in clubs with my omnis split about 5 inches.

Should I run the omnis outside aswell or try the cards? And how far from stage should I be when using cards/omnis, any good experiences? Should the cards be split at all? Im running stealth so I dont plan to split the mics further than the 5-6 inches.

Oh, and I run the CA-14.

[Church-Audio]

I've been looking around the board for some clearence on this but I didnt manage to be any wiser.

On friday, Im recording a rock concert in an outdoor area pretty similar to the ones on festivals.
I have so far only recorded in clubs with my omnis split about 5 inches.

Should I run the omnis outside aswell or try the cards? And how far from stage should I be when using cards/omnis, any good experiences? Should the cards be split at all? Im running stealth so I dont plan to split the mics further than the 5-6 inches.

Oh, and I run the CA-14.

Omni depends on distance to the stage / PA if your close you can use omni mics for sure. It also depends on how loud the source is if the source is loud you can get away with omni because it will be louder then the audience. If you are far away and dead center use cards.. but again you need to get them as high as you can to get a really good capture.

[rastasean]

I've got the ca14 omnis & cards. I've ran them outside (omnis) on a stand up about 10 feet so my experience doesn't apply to stealth.

I believe you may to better if you get close to one of the speakers and just hang out in front of it. Depending on how big/small the stage is and placement of the speakers, you may have to go very far back to be DFC and that would usually mean being around a bunch of loud talkers and since you're running omnis, not cool.

Whatever mics you get, split them at least 6 inches and more if possible. How would you simultaneously run the omnis and cards? 

[paytoplay]

Thanks for the quick answers. Then I'll go for the omnis and try split them at least 6 inches. Might try to get closer to the stage aswell.

[Belexes]

Split omnis. Omnis are less sensitive to wind, which can be a big help.

[boojum]

I can't give better advice than you have gotten.  But I can add some observations.  Omni's hear everything, front, back and sides.  Cards are focussed on what is in front and to some degree to the sides.  They generally have different arrays.  I run omni's at about 40cm apart facing straight ahead, not that it matters a whole lot.  They can be off a few degrees.  Cards I generally run ORTF, 110 degree included angle and 17 cm distance between diaphragms.  Cards hear better at a distances, about 50% better.  Actually a card generally hears 1.7 times the distance an omni does.  So, omnis go in close.  If crowd noise is a problem, run them up high.  Also, omnis have a better bottom end, you will get better bass,

All that aside, you are going to have fun at the concert and get a recording.  The more you practice recording the better you will get.  And remember to have fun.     

[acidjack]

Not to hijack this topic, or dispute any of the above, but I have always wondered why, from a technical perspective, folks often recommend omnis outdoors.

Am I correct that the technical explanation goes something like:

Outdoors, you don't have a "room", so room reflections that often make omnis undesirable from any significant distance indoors are not a problem.
Omnis are less sensitive to wind.

Is there anything else?  Because I would still think that since an omni is picking up 360 degrees of information, it would still be undesirable at any distance because it would sound more distant relative to a cardiod. 

Assuming wind can be eliminated as an issue (i.e., by using proper windscreens), wouldn't using a more directional mic like a cardiod still be more desirable (again, at any significant distance from the source)?  I get why hypers are probably not ideal outdoors...

[Church-Audio]

Not to hijack this topic, or dispute any of the above, but I have always wondered why, from a technical perspective, folks often recommend omnis outdoors.

Am I correct that the technical explanation goes something like:

Outdoors, you don't have a "room", so room reflections that often make omnis undesirable from any significant distance indoors are not a problem.
Omnis are less sensitive to wind.

Is there anything else?  Because I would still think that since an omni is picking up 360 degrees of information, it would still be undesirable at any distance because it would sound more distant relative to a cardiod. 

Assuming wind can be eliminated as an issue (i.e., by using proper windscreens), wouldn't using a more directional mic like a cardiod still be more desirable (again, at any significant distance from the source)?  I get why hypers are probably not ideal outdoors...

I find for live outdoor shows omni mics sound more natural. And yes the lack of the room loading is a huge factor in the choice.. I dont think omni mics are a good choice far away from any source. I also think because PA systems have come so far no longer is distance a huge factor in sound quality like it once was. That now means that omni mics can be run farther away then we once ran them and still be able to get good results. SO I guess it depends on the situation the quality of the sound system.. and distance. These things can only be known the day of the show that's one of the reasons why I include omni and cards in my ca-9100 package.

Chris

[travelinbeat]

This may not help anytime in the very immediate future, but when I go to Bonnaroo next week I plan on using my Busman BSC1's with a card cap and some Church CAFS-OMNI's on a 6'10" split.  I should soon (within a month or so) have some nice comparisons on this issue.

*granted I will not be using the same chain for the mics, as I do not have a 4 track recorder, but the sound itself should be interesting to compare nonetheless.

[Shadow_7]

OMNIs are just more forgiving.  Less sensitive to wind noise.  Sometimes even handling noise.  Harder to aim poorly.  And other perks.  There are no proper wind screens.  And once you put a windscreen on, you might not be able to determine where it's aimed anymore.  There are adequate windscreens for your region.  But I live in a region where wind is a major issue for a fair amount of the year. 

Cards just sound odd to me outdoors.  Truck driving down the road, and boom it's in the image, you hear it move some, then boom it's gone.  Are there buildings there?  Did it drive off a cliff?  That poor truck...

I 2nd the elevation thing.  It just sounds better above peoples heads, than hidden behind someones back.  And it's easier to get a better balance of audience versus group.  Not always an option, but something to consider.  Proximity is always good, depending on the loudness of a given performance.  If you're just going to be recording the PAs, you might as well leave the mics at home and get a direct feed.

[manitouman]

Split omnis. Omnis are less sensitive to wind, which can be a big help.

If you run omni's make sure there's no roof over your head. I've run omni's where it's open air no roof such as Red Rocks and it sounds amazing. I've ran where it's outdoor but with the roof covering the seated area and it sounds like shit. Omni's are more forgiving for  recordings since you don't necessarily have to stand perfectly still which could in turn make you look suspicious. I only use cards inside during the winter months if I can avoid it. It will all boil down to a matter of preference of what sound you like when listening to your recordings.

[Belexes]

^ Very true. I only use my omni's in 'open air' situatations with no roof.

[adrianf74]

What he said.

It's hard to say exactly which the best option is in this case.  Some will say cards while others will say omnis.  If it's windy, cards will be harder to deal with because they're affected more by wind.  However, if you've got a bunch of chatty Cathy's around you, you're gonna pick them up on your omnis less than you would the cards.  I've had some great recordings outdoors at festivals with cards and also some poor ones (same can be said for indoor rooms as well).

I think the key is to get up as close as you can to the stacks and use omnis.  I know Chris says you can get away standing back a bit further with omnis but I'd still want to be about 20-30 people away from the stacks tops with omnis.

My $0.02.

[jsfrank]

I've been looking around the board for some clearence on this but I didnt manage to be any wiser.

On friday, Im recording a rock concert in an outdoor area pretty similar to the ones on festivals.
I have so far only recorded in clubs with my omnis split about 5 inches.

Should I run the omnis outside aswell or try the cards? And how far from stage should I be when using cards/omnis, any good experiences? Should the cards be split at all? Im running stealth so I dont plan to split the mics further than the 5-6 inches.

Oh, and I run the CA-14.

If you are running stealth you will be in the crowd, right? Run the cards to minimize the noise from the people around you.

[adrianf74]

If you are running stealth you will be in the crowd, right? Run the cards to minimize the noise from the people around you.

However if it's windy - and he's running windsocks or whatnot - he'll be thankful for the omnis.  I did a recording in Toronto about a decade ago at a major intersection known for being a wind-tunnel and even with the windsocks, you could heard the odd passing of wind.

Again, this one'll be debated until the cows come home.