Topic: Preamp Gain vs. Recorder Input Level

[rockymtnryan]

I've got a question; hoping to get some insight.  Assume I'm using mics > preamp > recorder, and recording loud rock music.... 

Would there be any difference in sound using a lower gain on the preamp and a higher recording level on the recorder.....or a higher gain level on the preamp and a lower recording level on the recorder?

I would assume once I get to a certain point on the recorder (highest input level) I could start hearing noise from the recorder, but just wondering in general do folks focus more on gain from the pre or input level on the recorder to achieve good levels and a full sound stage for the recording.

Thanks!

[datbrad]

I've got a question; hoping to get some insight.  Assume I'm using mics > preamp > recorder, and recording loud rock music.... 

Would there be any difference in sound using a lower gain on the preamp and a higher recording level on the recorder.....or a higher gain level on the preamp and a lower recording level on the recorder?

I would assume once I get to a certain point on the recorder (highest input level) I could start hearing noise from the recorder, but just wondering in general do folks focus more on gain from the pre or input level on the recorder to achieve good levels and a full sound stage for the recording.

Thanks!

If you are going to be recording lout rock music, noise is not the issue, since the dynamic range of the source is small, and there are no passages with low level signal where noise floor would even be a factor to consider. For loud rock PA taping, it's overload distortion you have to control, so the preamp must be able to take a hot mic signal, and the recorder needs to accept hot line input.

Typically, this will mean starting with low gain on the preamp, since most modern file based recorders with unbalanced inputs cannot take too hot a line level signal. So, you need a preamp that can take a hot output from the mics, and also run it low enough that the line level signal to the recorder needs to be boosted more by the recorder to get good levels.

A good rule of thumb is if you have to run your recorder gain less than halfway up on it's control knob, you are feeding too hot a signal from the preamp. Find a spot a little over halfway up on the recorder gain control, and then see where you need to have the preamp set to get it to land there. Then use that setup going foward. YMMV of course, based on the equipment you have.

[rockymtnryan]

If memory serves when I recorded WSP @ Pepsi Center for 12/30 and 12/31 (first recordings with rig) I had the UA-5 set at less than 50%, and the r-09 input was at 10 out of 30.  I was pulling solid -12 and jumping to -6 on the r-09 regularly.

[runonce]

Im most, if not all, cases - you want to get the best S/N ratio from your preamp....which means running it as high as comfortably possible.

Run it as if it were hooked to nothing...it has an ideal level.

If your recorders input is too sensitive and cant handle your preamps optimum settings...get new gear!

Or at least use some sort of attenuation between the pre and the recorder...

I never like seeing a guy running his pre low because he has his recorder level set too high!

[stevetoney]

I'm a simpleton (because former Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell thinks of his constituency that way) and don't always understand some of the more technical discussion that goes on here. 

Assuming both the preamp and the recorder aren't worlds apart on the price/quality spectrum and neither the preamp or recorder are overloading, if I have a preamp who's sole function in life is to cleanly amplify a sound that's input to it, and I have a recorder that has multiple functions (preamp/ADC/recording device), it would be logical to me to expect the preamp to be the higher quality amplification device.  Using that logic, I've always relied on my preamp gain more than my recorder gain.

The second factor for me though is that I use stand-alone preamps that I buy specifically because of the sound produced by the preamp.  Because the mics and preamp are what I've designed my rig around in terms of the sound I want, my preamp gain ALWAYS sounds better to me than my recorder gain.

[datbrad]

Im most, if not all, cases - you want to get the best S/N ratio from your preamp....which means running it as high as comfortably possible.

Run it as if it were hooked to nothing...it has an ideal level.

If your recorders input is too sensitive and cant handle your preamps optimum settings...get new gear!

Or at least use some sort of attenuation between the pre and the recorder...

I never like seeing a guy running his pre low because he has his recorder level set too high!

The issue is the unity level of the recorder, where above that the active electronics that rest between the input connector and the gain control knob can overload, even with displayed levels on the recorder "seemingly" ok. Where the knob on the recorder sits for unity has nothing to do with it's physical position, if that makes sense.

This was not a factor with the DAT recorders of old, as these decks had pure analog gain (or in some cases a variable resistor with unity being at max gain). The majority of today's file based recorders have digitally controlled analog gain with a unity point that is typically above the 50% mark on the "pot". So, you could drive a preamp nice and hard (no argument that it's optimal) and overload the active electronics, either totally or just during loud transients.

I hear this effect on recordings every now and then, and it's not the mics or the preamp, but the recorders that are overloading. Again, running a recorder like an R09 just above the 50% gain level and driving the preamp at whatever gain allows the recorder to sit around that point seems to eliminate that issue. Now, if you are using a SD box, or a studio recorder with XLR line inputs, I expect you can drive the preamps as hard as they can take and not worry about overloading the recorder line in.

Edit to add: I run both hot with my rig. I usually run 36db of gain on my preamps, and still have to crank the gain on my 661 between 1 and 2 o'clock on the knob going XLR line in.

[goodcooker]

I get my gain from my preamps and not my recorders ...for most of the reasons stated above. I want the sound of my recordings to come from the mics and preamp with the recorder serving as the capture device. I think the analog stage of both of my mini recorders (Tascam DR2D and Marantz PMD620) is fairly neutral (with the 620 being on the dark side) so they serve the functions of A/D and storage for the most part.

[SmokinJoe]

If memory serves when I recorded WSP @ Pepsi Center for 12/30 and 12/31 (first recordings with rig) I had the UA-5 set at less than 50%, and the r-09 input was at 10 out of 30.  I was pulling solid -12 and jumping to -6 on the r-09 regularly.

Running analog out of a UA-5 into an R09 is a special case.  Here you have 3 sets of gain knobs... cranking one and minimizing another is less than ideal.
- the gain knobs on the UA-5 next to the XLR's
- the input gain (0-30) on the R09
- the headphone gain on the UA-5 also controls what goes to the RCA analog outputs.

My experience with the R09 is that it doesn't get particularly noisy running line-in at max, but shoot for the midrange on general principle.  When you have a hot signal which causes you to run the R09 gain way down, to like 5 or 8, it doesn't brickwall but it just doesn't sound quite as sweet as when you run midrange.

There are various opinions, but here is what I have done and it works well for me:
- Set the UA-5 XLR gains to about 3 o'clock (because that's where they typically end up for digi out, so I'm optimizing those preamps.)  Having a little blip of that red LED once in a while is good, but not a steady red.
- Set the gain on the R09 to 15 and leave it there.  That's close to unity, or optimized.
- Assuming the above 2 are correct, adjust the UA-5 headphone volume knob to give you those -6 peak readings on the R09.  This might be about 3 o'clock also, but that's just a rough starting point.

You can try turning the R09 gain up to about 20 and turning down the headphone gain a little.  Try it one way for the opening act and the other way for the main act, and see if you prefer one or the other.

That's my opinion... I've only run that way a few times.  Vanark and Groundhog2 run that way a lot, look to see if they have posted anywhere.

[runonce]

If memory serves when I recorded WSP @ Pepsi Center for 12/30 and 12/31 (first recordings with rig) I had the UA-5 set at less than 50%, and the r-09 input was at 10 out of 30.  I was pulling solid -12 and jumping to -6 on the r-09 regularly.

Running analog out of a UA-5 into an R09 is a special case.  Here you have 3 sets of gain knobs... cranking one and minimizing another is less than ideal.
- the gain knobs on the UA-5 next to the XLR's
- the input gain (0-30) on the R09
- the headphone gain on the UA-5 also controls what goes to the RCA analog outputs.

My experience with the R09 is that it doesn't get particularly noisy running line-in at max, but shoot for the midrange on general principle.  When you have a hot signal which causes you to run the R09 gain way down, to like 5 or 8, it doesn't brickwall but it just doesn't sound quite as sweet as when you run midrange.

There are various opinions, but here is what I have done and it works well for me:
- Set the UA-5 XLR gains to about 3 o'clock (because that's where they typically end up for digi out, so I'm optimizing those preamps.)  Having a little blip of that red LED once in a while is good, but not a steady red.
- Set the gain on the R09 to 15 and leave it there.  That's close to unity, or optimized.
- Assuming the above 2 are correct, adjust the UA-5 headphone volume knob to give you those -6 peak readings on the R09.  This might be about 3 o'clock also, but that's just a rough starting point.

You can try turning the R09 gain up to about 20 and turning down the headphone gain a little.  Try it one way for the opening act and the other way for the main act, and see if you prefer one or the other.

That's my opinion... I've only run that way a few times.  Vanark and Groundhog2 run that way a lot, look to see if they have posted anywhere.

Thats exactly my thinking...^^^^^

[todd e]

i like to leave the m248 cranks to 3-4 o'clock and then set the calpots on the minime, once.  the m248 gain is so fine, that any micro adjustments i make, dont need to be made but once on the m248.  using the mini-me, allows me to take a line input into my recording deck and not have to adjust a 3rd level.

[rockymtnryan]

If memory serves when I recorded WSP @ Pepsi Center for 12/30 and 12/31 (first recordings with rig) I had the UA-5 set at less than 50%, and the r-09 input was at 10 out of 30.  I was pulling solid -12 and jumping to -6 on the r-09 regularly.

Running analog out of a UA-5 into an R09 is a special case.  Here you have 3 sets of gain knobs... cranking one and minimizing another is less than ideal.
- the gain knobs on the UA-5 next to the XLR's
- the input gain (0-30) on the R09
- the headphone gain on the UA-5 also controls what goes to the RCA analog outputs.

My experience with the R09 is that it doesn't get particularly noisy running line-in at max, but shoot for the midrange on general principle.  When you have a hot signal which causes you to run the R09 gain way down, to like 5 or 8, it doesn't brickwall but it just doesn't sound quite as sweet as when you run midrange.

There are various opinions, but here is what I have done and it works well for me:
- Set the UA-5 XLR gains to about 3 o'clock (because that's where they typically end up for digi out, so I'm optimizing those preamps.)  Having a little blip of that red LED once in a while is good, but not a steady red.
- Set the gain on the R09 to 15 and leave it there.  That's close to unity, or optimized.
- Assuming the above 2 are correct, adjust the UA-5 headphone volume knob to give you those -6 peak readings on the R09.  This might be about 3 o'clock also, but that's just a rough starting point.

You can try turning the R09 gain up to about 20 and turning down the headphone gain a little.  Try it one way for the opening act and the other way for the main act, and see if you prefer one or the other.

That's my opinion... I've only run that way a few times.  Vanark and Groundhog2 run that way a lot, look to see if they have posted anywhere.

This is a GREAT suggestion!  Never even thought about incorporating the monitor volume level as sort of a trim.  I certainly want to bring in as much of the sound as I can with the UA-5, and run the r-09 at an optimal level and that seems like the way to do it.  Thanks!

On a side note I've also been using the following settings on the r-09.  Thoughts?
AGC                Off
EXT Mic Type   Stereo
Low Cut          Off
Mic Gain          Low

[Napo]

I tape with the Sony M-10 and preamps CA9100 and Tinybox. Music is not loud.

My best results were with M-10 at parity ( knob at 5 2/3) and preamps at max. Even if the levels are low I can increase volume in post. If I crank up the M10 knob to max I get floor noise a lot.

My 2 cents!

Best,
Mauro

[Church-Audio]

Im most, if not all, cases - you want to get the best S/N ratio from your preamp....which means running it as high as comfortably possible.

Run it as if it were hooked to nothing...it has an ideal level.

If your recorders input is too sensitive and cant handle your preamps optimum settings...get new gear!

Or at least use some sort of attenuation between the pre and the recorder...

I never like seeing a guy running his pre low because he has his recorder level set too high!

The issue is the unity level of the recorder, where above that the active electronics that rest between the input connector and the gain control knob can overload, even with displayed levels on the recorder "seemingly" ok. Where the knob on the recorder sits for unity has nothing to do with it's physical position, if that makes sense.

This was not a factor with the DAT recorders of old, as these decks had pure analog gain (or in some cases a variable resistor with unity being at max gain). The majority of today's file based recorders have digitally controlled analog gain with a unity point that is typically above the 50% mark on the "pot". So, you could drive a preamp nice and hard (no argument that it's optimal) and overload the active electronics, either totally or just during loud transients.

I hear this effect on recordings every now and then, and it's not the mics or the preamp, but the recorders that are overloading. Again, running a recorder like an R09 just above the 50% gain level and driving the preamp at whatever gain allows the recorder to sit around that point seems to eliminate that issue. Now, if you are using a SD box, or a studio recorder with XLR line inputs, I expect you can drive the preamps as hard as they can take and not worry about overloading the recorder line in.

Edit to add: I run both hot with my rig. I usually run 36db of gain on my preamps, and still have to crank the gain on my 661 between 1 and 2 o'clock on the knob going XLR line in.

You can get to a situation where you are overloading the stage before the attenuator, Digital or analog, The meters will show the signal is ok because you are attenuating it after the overload. So you will think you dont have distortion but you do. That would be a worst case scenario and very hard to do in most cases because of the amount of input most line inputs on most recorders can handle. Thats why its always best to have the overload indicator circuit in a design in the first stage of the preamp so it actually means something. Most recorders put it last By then the buffer amp is already overloaded.

Chris

[rockymtnryan]

So in regards to the peak light on the preamp.  How much is too much?  I know I don't want a solid red light, but how much can it blink without crossing the line from well amplified to overload? 

Peak light once in a while during the set at the loudest points or occasionally during each song's loudest point.  Just trying to get an idea of what most people do when it comes to their use of the UA-5 or another preamp.

[MSTaper]

If memory serves when I recorded WSP @ Pepsi Center for 12/30 and 12/31 (first recordings with rig) I had the UA-5 set at less than 50%, and the r-09 input was at 10 out of 30.  I was pulling solid -12 and jumping to -6 on the r-09 regularly.

Running analog out of a UA-5 into an R09 is a special case.  Here you have 3 sets of gain knobs... cranking one and minimizing another is less than ideal.
- the gain knobs on the UA-5 next to the XLR's
- the input gain (0-30) on the R09
- the headphone gain on the UA-5 also controls what goes to the RCA analog outputs.

My experience with the R09 is that it doesn't get particularly noisy running line-in at max, but shoot for the midrange on general principle.  When you have a hot signal which causes you to run the R09 gain way down, to like 5 or 8, it doesn't brickwall but it just doesn't sound quite as sweet as when you run midrange.

There are various opinions, but here is what I have done and it works well for me:
- Set the UA-5 XLR gains to about 3 o'clock (because that's where they typically end up for digi out, so I'm optimizing those preamps.)  Having a little blip of that red LED once in a while is good, but not a steady red.
- Set the gain on the R09 to 15 and leave it there.  That's close to unity, or optimized.
- Assuming the above 2 are correct, adjust the UA-5 headphone volume knob to give you those -6 peak readings on the R09.  This might be about 3 o'clock also, but that's just a rough starting point.

You can try turning the R09 gain up to about 20 and turning down the headphone gain a little.  Try it one way for the opening act and the other way for the main act, and see if you prefer one or the other.

That's my opinion... I've only run that way a few times.  Vanark and Groundhog2 run that way a lot, look to see if they have posted anywhere.

That's about how I ran my rig (CK-1 hypers > UA-5 > R-09) the other night. The red light was bumping, not steady, but a little more than I like. It was a bit hot, so next time I'll bring it back to 2 p.m. maybe. R-09 stayed at 15. Can't recall where the headphone out was. Recording still sounded good for a small room and not the best recording location!

The Only Sons from Murfreesboro, Tn.  http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=542807


MSTaper