Topic: rec me a basic 4-channel recorder

[jerryfreak]

friend promotes bands at a bar and has km140>v2. hes looking for a basic 4 channel for board+mics. when i had my dr680 for sale he said that was too much so im guessing his budget is upper twos to lower threes... hes not opposed to used gear if you could rec a model that shows up occasionally

[F.O.Bean]

Tascam DR2D!!! They can be found for around $100 on sale. I'd say if he waits til around the holidays, they'd be that cheap again

[shoestringconcerts]

Yes I have 3 DR2d's and I used them for exactly this purpose. 
I have a DR2d missing the battery cover that I would sell for $100. 

I am purchasing an 8 Channel recording and simply wont need 3 dr2d's anymore

email shoestringconcerts@gmail.com

[F.O.Bean]

Yes I have 3 DR2d's and I used them for exactly this purpose. 
I have a DR2d missing the battery cover that I would sell for $100. 

I am purchasing an 8 Channel recording and simply wont need 3 dr2d's anymore

email shoestringconcerts@gmail.com

Which recorder are you going to get? My guess is the Tascam DR680

[jerryfreak]

so the 'dual recording feature' seems weird. do you have real level metering on both pirs of channels? i assume you run it line an and mic in at the same time. the tascam page says board+ built in mics but im assuming mic in takes the plcae of built in mics

how does this sound (say relative to a PCM-M10 or R09-HR?)

[John Willett]

If the microphones are good Neumann mics like the KM140, then I would not go any lower than an Edirol R-44 or a Tascam DR-680 - spending less would be a waste of money.

If he wanted a cheaper recorder, he should never have got the KM140s and gone for cheaper mics - getting the KM140 he obviously wants quality - and that means the R-44 or DR-680 as being the very cheapest options that could possibly do the microphones justice.

[adrianf74]

@Bean: Where are you expecting to see the Tascam DR-2D "on sale" for $100 again?  That was a blow-out last fall and since then, there is a demand for the few "new" units that still float around (most places are asking $170+ for it -- if you're lucky).  If I could find a TARDIS or DeLorean, I'd be rich! 

@Jerryfreak:  There is no quick solution here.  If your friend is stuck on a certain budget, he's not going to get what is "IDEAL" and it won't be easy.  As John has mentioned, the R-44 or 680 are probably the best go to's if you want to stay true to XLR with low self-noise.  The DR-2D is 2x 1/8" which might work but they're harder to come by since the product was discontinued and if I was running the mics John alluded to, I wouldn't be considering the 2D for a hot second.  There's also the Roland R-26 (XLR with 1/8" input) which will cost MORE than a used 680.

Finally, there's also the ZOOM H6 with two pairs of XLR inputs PLUS the option to add 2 more but the noise floor on this thing isn't that great from what I've read online.  If I was forking out $400 for the H6, I'd be grabbing a 680.  I know the $430 new 680's also require a TARDIS or DeLorean so used might be the only option right now.    There are some people running the H6 on here and love it; I just don't think it's for me and I think there might be better options.

Somebody told me to buy nice or buy twice... I'd convince your friend to just get what works the BEST for him even if it costs a little more scratch. 

[Gutbucket]

The better arguments against the DR2d are not sound quality* but its 1/8" inputs, lack of phantom power, limited adjustability and inability to accommodate very hot inputs and no multichannel playback capability.  The Dual feature works fine, writing two stereo files.  Although you can't see both simultaneously, you can switch between visually metering levels of both input pairs, however you can not switch the headphone/line-out monitoring (given that limitation, it's metering is far superior to that of the DR680 and even that of the R44). 

Sound wise, I feel the DR2d with an external preamp (the soundboard in this case?) is comparable to that of an M10, R44 or DR680.  I have no hesitation using high quality microphone with the DR2d as long as they get phantom and gain control elsewhere.   As long as those caveats are acceptable, IMO the expensive mics / cheap recorder argument doesn't hold water.

An R44 would be my first suggestion as the best all around basic 4-channel recorder but is well out of the price range.

*[edit- I'm sure the DR2d's noisefloor and dynamic range specs are nothing spectacular, but he won't need anything close to even 90dB of dynamic range to record bands using excellent mics in a bar anyway.  I'm satisfied using it with external preamps for 4 channel classical recordings with low ambient noise floors and large dynamic swings, which are far more of a challenge for the recorder]

[shoestringconcerts]

I am purchasing an 8 Channel recording and simply wont need 3 dr2d's anymore

email shoestringconcerts@gmail.com

Which recorder are you going to get? My guess is the Tascam DR680

Actually I am looking at the Zoom R16 (8 tracks) or a Jam Hub Tracker MT16 (16 tracks)

The DR680 is a nice unit but at that price point I want the ability to record more than 8 tracks.

[LikeASong]

The better arguments against the DR2d are not sound quality* but its 1/8" inputs, lack of phantom power, limited adjustability and inability to accommodate very hot inputs and no multichannel playback capability.  .. (...) ..  I have no hesitation using high quality microphone with the DR2d as long as they get phantom and gain control elsewhere.   As long as those caveats are acceptable, IMO the expensive mics / cheap recorder argument doesn't hold water.

I agree with this. Besides Zooms, that are widely regarded as really noisy and flimsy in several aspects, I would have no fear using expensive mics with "cheap" recorders. With a proper way to power the mics and control the gain, the recordings produced by a DR2D aren't worse than the ones produced by a DR680 or a R44... My 0'02€.

[404 Not Found]

In re. to a 4 or 6 track recorder, the Zoom H6 has been really good so far and is not a flimsy unit.  I do not use it every time I am recording and with the soon to be released add-on accessory for the 2 extra mic inputs, it makes for a good deal especially in noting it's size & price ($399).

I have run feeds from the board direct as well as running additional tracks through either my Sound Device MixPre-D and or my Shure FP33 prior to the Zoom inputs with great results.

As for my Roland R4, I have stopped using it completely.  (That's the R4 and not the R4Pro)

[John Willett]

As for my Roland R4, I have stopped using it completely.  (That's the R4 and not the R4Pro)

And it was the R-44 that was being suggested - cheaper than the R-4 Pro.

The original R-4 never excited me at all and the early versions had i/p 4 polarity-reversed (corrected in later units, I think, after I pointed this out to Roland).

But the R-44 and the new R-88 are nice machines for the price and a friend uses them for serious classical recording with expensive mics.

[2manyrocks]

I'm still trying to figure out how the OP can find 4 channels for $200-$300.  By the time one pays for a DR2d and a couple of 2 channel preamps, it's over budget.  The next price step from there is apparently the Zoom H6 at $399 and from there, maybe the Dr 680 if they put it back on sale for $429 sometime around Black Friday. 

[LikeASong]

I'm still trying to figure out how the OP can find 4 channels for $200-$300.  By the time one pays for a DR2d and a couple of 2 channel preamps, it's over budget.  The next price step from there is apparently the Zoom H6 at $399 and from there, maybe the Dr 680 if they put it back on sale for $429 sometime around Black Friday. 

If I'm reading correctly, I don't think the OP's friend needs a preamp, he already owns a KM-140 + Lunatec V2 combo. He just needs a 4ch recorder to pull some soundboard+mics recordings.

[H₂O]

You can get a used dr680 for $400 - why not go this route?

Or even sell the V2 and use the cash to buy a 680

Or sell the 140s and get some 184s, etc

10 years ago the cheapest 4 track options would run you around $5k - be happy with $400-500

[jerryfreak]

DR680 was the first thing i suggested as it is indeed perfect, affordable, easy to use, flexible to add a few more channels if needed. was selling my one month old one that was used for one weekend and it was out of his budget. the DR2D i think is the only fit here

[John Willett]

DR680 was the first thing i suggested as it is indeed perfect, affordable, easy to use, flexible to adda  few more channels if needed. was selling my one month old one that was used for one weekend and it was out of his budget. the DR2D i think is the only fit here

The problem is, is that the budget is wrong.

Trying to use top quality mics like the Neumann KM140 with a cheap recorder is like buying a £2,000 professional lens for a camera and then wanting to use it on a box Brownie 

[Gutbucket]

If the pro lens was capable of interfacing with the brownie, you could take some outstanding photos with it, as rediculous as that may seem.  The brownie functions simply as light-tight box, shutter and film advance.  A fully fuctional professional camera body has more advanced functions and controls, but by far the important basic element beyond a simple shutter and light-tight box is the lens.

It is most certainly a rediculous combination for a professional who requires reliabillity above all else, a streamlined production environment, has use for advanced controls, etc.

But it is not a rediculous combination based soley on the potential quality of the end product, the mis-match does not prevent it from working, just eliminates 'niceties' of getting the job done and reliabiltiy, which are critical for a professional for hire.

I once attended a exhibition of beautiful large-format photographic prints made with various high-quality professional lenses mounted on cardboard boxes, the filmstock simply adheared to the back of the box and the lens cap used as shutter.  Basically a homemade pin-hole camera with top-caliber lenses attached, not nearly as advanced as a Browine!

[2manyrocks]

No doubt someone in China will start making lens adapters to put a $2,000 lens on a brownie, but the local drug store still won't develop the film anymore. 

If the OP's friend doesn't want to spend more than $200-$300, then Dr2d is about the cheapest option for 4 channels albeit unusual for him to own his other valuable equipment.  If he doesn't like the results, then he can resell the 2d and won't be out a huge amount of money. 

[LikeASong]

Spot on, Gutbucket - as usual.

I don't think anybody can tell/hear a difference between a recording made with the exact same pair of mics placed at the exact same spot fed by the exact same preamp, feeding a DR680 and a DR2D both recording at a comparable gain level, and the recordings being normalized to -0.1dB. I'm open to listen to a comparison that prove me wrong, but I dare to say that those recordings will be close to identical. Of course, the reliability, durability, look, batery life, etc of the recorders aren't even close among them, but as far as the recording goes, I think they're almost indistinguishable.

In my collection there are a SHITLOAD of concerts recorded (by amateur and advanced tapers) with KM-140's or similar high-end microphones and Tascam/Sony/Edirol/whatever recorders all under $200, and all of them sound perfectly fine.

[adrianf74]

In my collection there are a SHITLOAD of concerts recorded (by amateur and advanced tapers) with KM-140's or similar high-end microphones and Tascam/Sony/Edirol/whatever recorders all under $200, and all of them sound perfectly fine.

This.

And as the technology improves there's little difference between product A and B (unless product A or B is made by Zoom). 

How many people around here run Schoeps MK4's > Actives > TinyBox > M10?  Or AKG's with the same route? 

At the end of the day, you just need a recorder that does what you need it do.  The DR-680 is probably the best option available to the OP.

[Gutbucket]

Ignoring critical feature differences like balanced inputs and phantom powering, and important operational and functional differences, there are real performance differences between recorders.  I just don't think recoding bands in bars playing through PAs gets close to the threshold level where those sonic differences in recorders become significant.   What's more important in this case is budget and functionality (setup and operation), rather than differences in sound quality between recorders or a gross mismatch of gear quality.   If the user has great mics but a small budget for a recorder then there is no reason not to go ahead and use the good mics with a less expensive machine as long as it works to their satisfaction.

The differences in sound quality between recorders is due primarily to the quality of the analog input circuitry up to and including the analog to digital converter.  Feeding line-level signals to the recorder doesn't eliminate the need for good analog input circuitry but reduces the low noise demands placed on it among other things. ADC quality constanty improves and gets less costly.  Does the ADC in the DR2d, the DR680 and R44 when recording the same mics and external preamp sound significantly different?  I don't doubt that they may if one listens closely enough.  I've never compared them that closely; they all do a good enough job that I can worry about more significant things than those small sound quality differences.  I did hear a clear improvement in the ADC when I switched from original R09s to DR2ds.  That difference crossed my personal threshold.  I do prefer the sound of the V3 preamp and its ADC over the internal preamps and ADC of my R44 (OCM) and DR680 (stock) but except for a few critical recordings made in perfect conditions, that difference is usually not enough to overcome the convenience of plugging mics straight into those recorders. I mostly run the V3 when I need more than 6 channels into the DR680 and can reccord two additional channels by using the V3's digital output; more of a practical thing than a sound thing.

[Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)]

Everyone's been recommending the right stuff.

Taking a different tack, if your friend already has a laptop PC with a Firewire port and can stand to record using it, add a second-hand MOTU Traveler for under $300, download a copy of Audacity,  and you're done.

[H₂O]

I am sure the AD quality between the dr680 and dr2d is not much different but there are other factors such as ergonomics, interface, etc that IMO warrant the extra expense

Such as locking, balanced, XLR's; a more solid feel then a hand held recorder; an interface designed from top to bottom with multitrack considered; headphone channel soloing; etc

I still don't get it

[2manyrocks]

Well, the OP started off making an assumption about his friend's budget being $200-$300, and all of us have a tendency to look at this a bit more broadly than the question as originally posed. 

With those mics and that preamp, one would might naturally suspect the available budget would be more than $200-$300.  Something does not compute or there's some other consideration that hasn't been put on the table.  Maybe the "friend" was fishing to see if he could get the OP's 680 at a real bargain price....

[jerryfreak]

Well, the OP started off making an assumption about his friend's budget being $200-$300, and all of us have a tendency to look at this a bit more broadly than the question as originally posed. 

With those mics and that preamp, one would might naturally suspect the available budget would be more than $200-$300.  Something does not compute or there's some other consideration that hasn't been put on the table.  Maybe the "friend" was fishing to see if he could get the OP's 680 at a real bargain price....

hes an 'ex-taper', that was over a decade ago

[kirk97132]

I am sure the AD quality between the dr680 and dr2d is not much different but there are other factors such as ergonomics, interface, etc that IMO warrant the extra expense

WHen I first got my 680 I did a comp between the A/D on the 680 and the A/d on my Lunatec V3.  They were indistinguishable.  If you were to dig deep enough the comp is somewhere here on TS.  As for the price range stated, just because you already own mics and a pre that cost a fair amount of money does not mean you are in  a position to spend a bunch more money right now.  I know that for a fact.  If I had to spend 100 or more dollars right now I would be hard pressed to find the funds unless I sold something.  Yet I own 680's a V3 and SD MP-2 & USBPre-2 along with about 20 mics.

[2manyrocks]

The man's had ten years to save his $.