Topic: I need Opinions on Stock R4

[Rick]

I'd really like to get the busman mod, but the new mics I might be getting might make it impossible to afford it. How do people generally fell about mics > r4? Is it passable until I can afford the mod? I don’t want to jinx it, but the mics are vintage sd mics and I’d use them mostly at louder shows. Will the R4 be able to handle it?

Thanks!

[BayTaynt3d]

Pretty much every recording in the past six months on my website (see sig) was into an R4 using either C4s, 391/93s, 481/83s, or some combination of those mics plus matrixed SBDs on some. Also, some were spot mic'ed, but most were a combo of stereo pair plus a spot mic or two or the SBD into a stock R4. Listen for yourself. Also, search the LMA for R4 recordings.

[Shawn]

Obviously this is a completely subjective thing. IMO mics > R4 is good. It's not on the level of the highest end pre/ad units that are commonly used for our purposes, but it's just a step below them. so could it be better? certainly, but it is not bad stock.

[balou2]

I opted NOT to get the mod on the R4, and I could not be happier with the unit.  I don't think you'll hear much difference unless you are recording acoustic instruments in a very quiet environment.  Look at it this way...if you get the R4 through Cascade, you can always get the mod later.  You don't have to do it when you purchase it.

[Busman Audio]

You will notice a difference on all types of music right away. It is a big improvement and with the noise floor/ gain mod now it is so extremely quiet and good for loud shows.

As Balou2 said you can always get the mod later if you would like but I would say pay the extra dough and end up with something you will be happy with for a very long time.

[flintstone]

I know where to look for pricing for the Oade mods to R4.
Where online is the pricing and description for the Busman mods?

Flintstone

[Busman Audio]

Here is info on my mod scroll down and you will see the description where it says custom pre amp upgrades.

http://www.cascademedia.net/products.asp?catid=94&prodid=1598

[balou2]

Then I have a question...

I run the V3 in front of the R4 as my pre-amp.  This generally means the gain on the R4 is turned all the way down.  Reading bus' and Brian's words illustrates that the modification would further enhance the sound of my recordings.  Am I correct?

[Brian Skalinder]

I run the V3 in front of the R4 as my pre-amp.  This generally means the gain on the R4 is turned all the way down.  Reading bus' and Brian's words illustrates that the modification would further enhance the sound of my recordings.  Am I correct?

You'd still receive some sonic characteristics of the mods, yes, though not as much as if you ran mic-in to the R4. 

[poorlyconditioned]

Here is info on my mod scroll down and you will see the description where it says custom pre amp upgrades.

http://www.cascademedia.net/products.asp?catid=94&prodid=1598

Yeah, but how much are they?  Can you post a price (or approximate price)?

  Richard

[Busman Audio]

$300 for all 4 channels

[poorlyconditioned]

$300 for all 4 channels

Thanks Chris!

OK, I've done my own mods, but I can certainly recommend others get it modded.  The difference in improved sound and lower noise is worth it...

  Richard

[mandoman]

Question. I'm thinking about getting this unit. Any opinions on Oade vs. Busman mod?
How are people liking their R4's? Are they rugged and reliable? Is the HDD user replaceable?

Thanks!
mandoman

[poorlyconditioned]

Question. I'm thinking about getting this unit. Any opinions on Oade vs. Busman mod?
How are people liking their R4's? Are they rugged and reliable? Is the HDD user replaceable?

Thanks!
mandoman

I love mine.  Even for two-track stuff it is just very convenient.  Large level meters, nice controls, etc.  It even has an onscreen clock so I can tell what time it is (I don't wear a watch).

The only complaint I have is that it is sensitve to vibration.  If you put it on a hard surface (that is not solid) make sure to put something soft like a coat or sweater under it.  I've lost two shows due to vibration causing skipping.  Otherwise it is great.

Oh yeah, hard drive is replaceable, but you have to jump through a few hoops to get the new drive to work.  I've posted here about this, but I don't know how to find my old post.  Maybe someone else can help me out and link to it...

  Richard

[Shawn]

Question. I'm thinking about getting this unit. Any opinions on Oade vs. Busman mod?
How are people liking their R4's? Are they rugged and reliable? Is the HDD user replaceable?

Thanks!
mandoman

at least one user on here replaced the hard drive opn their R4 with a larger one. So depending on your level of techincal ability it is possible. I love my unit, and find it very rugged and reliable. I haven't had a single problem since buying mine. I personally haven't heard enough of either the busman or the oade mods to formulate an opinion either way.

[mmmatt]

I ran one for awhile stock.  I liked it but when you crank the gain it is noisy as hell.  Get the mod if at all possible.  If not try to get one that will allow a future mod if for no other reason than resale to another member at ts down the road.  I think we have been round and round with the vibration issue.  I never had the problem so I think it was only with a select few units.  Replacing the HD is easy and I don't know why Richard would have had any problems.  I just swapped them out and formated, and that is all I ever had to do.  I used a hitachi 60gb 7200/8m cache travelstar, so the type of drive may have made a difference.  I had the drive already so that was why I made the swap.  I often kept the drive full, and almost never formatted it, or any of the check disc > format type of raindance proceedure that some here swear by.  I never once had a problem.  The only problem I ever had was internal batts dying on me, and I lost the whole wav.
     Overall I can't recommend the r4 enough.  It is super easy to use, and the sound is good with potential for being great.  I sold mine for financial reasons and hope to get another one soon.  However I will be getting a busmann modded one the next time around.

My .02

Matt

[china_rider]

I'm the one that picked up mmMatts used R-4.  After buying from mmMatt I recorded 4-5 shows with the stock R-4 and was very happy with the results.  However, I went ahead and was one of the first to do the busman mod and had the HD replaced for a bigger model.  I also used a travelstar as the replacement drive and have never seen the slow HD issue..

As for the Busman mod I have my first 2 chan w modded and the second 2 with the standard mod and I could not be happier.  While the w mod is not a full w mod like on the UA-5 it sounds real nice with 480s running through it.  I've used the standard mod channels for both SBD and a second set of mics.  The mods have made a very noticeable positive change in the sound and I absolutely recommend them.  Recently I've been running 480s and TLs in a 4 mic mix and have had several people mention (for different recordings) they though the recording sounded better than they remembered the show.

I also can't say enough about having 4 channels.  Not just for when I want to do 4 chan, but there has been at least 5-6 times where I was recording 2 channel and another taper in the section ran out of batteries or had other issues and used my extra 2 channels.

The only complaint is that the speed to copy from the HD to CF is incredibly slow.  Practically real time.  The one time I tested it, it was quicker to copy the file to a PC via USB and then to the CF through a card reader.  I've been meaning to try this again with a different CF card and see if it is just as slow.

[Brian Skalinder]

Any opinions on Oade vs. Busman mod?

Mine's Oade modded.  I went with my Oade mods for a couple reasons:  <1> fairly loyal customer since I was so happy with my previous mods (modSBM-1, digi-UA5, W UA5, T+ UA5) and customer service, and <2> Busman hadn't yet sorted his arrangement with Cascade and I was willing to pay a bit more for the warranty Oade Bros offer on their work and the unit itself.  First mod included ch1-2 transparent modded.  Just got it back after round two which included changing ch1-2 from transparent mod to warm mod and moved to and improved on the transparent mod for ch3-4.  Still haven't gotten a good feel for the W and new T mod since I just got it back, but will learn more as I record additional performances. 

How are people liking their R4's?

Love my R-4.  Really enjoying running 4-mic mixes.  I'm able to get a sound I simply cannot from two channels (duh).  I typically run 2-ch with a tighter polar pattern (typically hypers or cards, usually XY) and 2-ch with a wider polar pattern (typically subcards or omnis, usually split or NOS).  Mixing the two in post gives me a very up front and direct sound (from the hypers/cards) with nice ambience and imaging (from the subcards/omnis).

Are they rugged and reliable?

It's proven very reliable for me so far.  Yeah, it's plastic, and not tank-like as my  previous V3, but I've encountered no problems to date.  Used it in fairly serious heat at RockyGrass last year with no problems.

Is the HDD user replaceable?

I know mmmatt's done it.  Not sure how I'd go about replacing the HD after getting the mods - I'd have to remove the Oade warranty sticker.  Maybe best to perform the HD replacement before getting it modded, or at least check in with Oade or Busman regarding replacing the HD post-mod.

[mandoman]

Thanks for the feedback guys, this helps alot. I'm upgrading from a microtrack, so
this is going to be a big improvement I'm sure. Main application is running a matrix
mix (2ch board/2ch aud mic). I usually mix this way 'on the fly' to 2-channel and hope
I get lucky - I usually do, but it'd be nice to have more control over the mix with discreet
4 channels.

I usually use the boards pre's (mackie onyx), so I'd want transparant pres on at least
2 channels. I like warm pres if the pres are nicer than what the onyx provides? If not,
I'd probably want transparant mods on all 4 channels.

2nd application will be to transfer some dats, so spdif in is essential. Being able to split/join
tracks on the unit is another nice feature.

The only downside I feel on the edirol is battery life. It's only gets like 2 hours on the internal
batteries right? I usally have AC available, but not always.

The other unit I'm considering is a 722. Mostly for it's ruggedness and reliability. Though that's
only 2 channel and expensive. The money I save not going 722 could go towards a h120/r09/zoomH4 stealth rig.

Keep that feedback coming. I need to work up my post count so I can give tickets!

[bgalizio]

The only downside I feel on the edirol is battery life. It's only gets like 2 hours on the internal
batteries right? I usally have AC available, but not always.

You can always use the WalMart DVD battery solution for 6ish hrs battery life.. Search the UA-5 battery threads for more info. The R-4 uses the exact same cable & battery as in those threads.

[china_rider]

I get +6 hours with a dvd battery.

[mandoman]

I get +6 hours with a dvd battery.

Cool, I've heard of the walmart battery but didn't know it worked for the R4...

[Brian Skalinder]

Main application is running a matrix
mix (2ch board/2ch aud mic). I usually mix this way 'on the fly' to 2-channel and hope I get lucky - I usually do, but it'd be nice to have more control over the mix with discreet 4 channels.

You'll have total control over the mix - definitely a better way to go if you want consistent results.  Sounds like a great application for the R-4.

2nd application will be to transfer some dats, so spdif in is essential. Being able to split/join tracks on the unit is another nice feature.

AFAIK, all of Edirol's products with S/PDIF digital-in resample the input.  Matters to some people, not to others - just something to think about.  IMO, best way to transfer DATs is via computer with an inexpensive but bit-transparent soundcard.

The only downside I feel on the edirol is battery life. It's only gets like 2 hours on the internal batteries right? I usally have AC available, but not always.

Ditto the li-ion battery recommendation.  These batteries are small, lightweight, great capacity, and fast to charge.  Just make sure you get the polarity correct on the power cable:  R-4 takes (-) tip and (+) ring, while most devices take the opposite.

[mmmatt]

yeah... don't use internals.  see my post above.  9v external dvd batts are cheap and easy to find.  If you are getting your way with the sbd enough to get a feed you will most likely have no problems getting power.  It sounds though like you usually use the same board... your band?  Or maybe you just use an onyx for a recording board.  I had both for a long time and although I like the onyx pres better than stock, I'm sure the mods will close or surpass the gap.

Matt

[mandoman]

yeah... don't use internals.  see my post above.  9v external dvd batts are cheap and easy to find.  If you are getting your way with the sbd enough to get a feed you will most likely have no problems getting power.  It sounds though like you usually use the same board... your band?  Or maybe you just use an onyx for a recording board.  I had both for a long time and although I like the onyx pres better than stock, I'm sure the mods will close or surpass the gap.

Matt

Yes, the r4 would be mostly for recording my band. I multitrack from the onyx to a g4 laptop tracking into dp4.51. I'm not 100% confident in that setup though, so I like to run a backup (ie 2 or 4 track soundboard/mic). Turns out my backup (microtrack) is less reliable than the g4, ugh, that's why I'm looking into an upgrade! I really need to invest in a macbook pro for more processor muscle. Sometimes I don't want to deal
with the full computer setup and just want a simple mix. And other times we play acoustic bluegrassy stuff w/o pa, so a nice
simple recording box that sounds great is desired. I run at4051's x/y and sometimes for acoustic bluegrass stuff, at4050's M/S or spaced omni plunked right in the middle of the jam.

[mandoman]

AFAIK, all of Edirol's products with S/PDIF digital-in resample the input.  Matters to some people, not to others - just something to think about.  IMO, best way to transfer DATs is via computer with an inexpensive but bit-transparent soundcard.

That's annoying that it resamples. OK, might not bother me too much converting 48khz sources to 44.1, but I expect
straight digital when transfering at the same sample rate. Hmm, this makes the unit less desirable but is not necessarily a
deal breaker.

I can already convert with a computer, but it's pretty nasty chain I've got right now when I want to do transfers away from the studio.
IE: DAT coax spdif-> co2 coax to optical -> m-audio transit usb. Too many boxes and the transit has it's quirks...

[Brian Skalinder]

I can already convert with a computer, but it's pretty nasty chain I've got right now when I want to do transfers away from the studio.
IE: DAT coax spdif-> co2 coax to optical -> m-audio transit usb. Too many boxes and the transit has it's quirks...

I'd scrap the transfer requirement for your recorder and pick up a $39 soundcard for transfers so you can ditch the CO2 and Transit.

[mandoman]

I can already convert with a computer, but it's pretty nasty chain I've got right now when I want to do transfers away from the studio.
IE: DAT coax spdif-> co2 coax to optical -> m-audio transit usb. Too many boxes and the transit has it's quirks...

I'd scrap the transfer requirement for your recorder and pick up a $39 soundcard for transfers so you can ditch the CO2 and Transit.

I've already got bitchn' transfer capabilities in my studio. I just need a better portable solution when I'm away from the studio.
I do intend to upgrade to a macbook pro early next year- that has built in optical digital, so then I can at least
ditch the transit in my present chain.

I think I'm going to save my purchases until After January, gotta' see what comes out at Macworld and NAMM first...

Thanks for the suggestion though. Going back to my laptop on the go is not a bad idea for doing transfers.