Topic: Setting levels when wide dynamics expected

[Carrera2]

Last night I recorded a strong orchestra from a good spot just left of center (my season tickets), in about the fifteenth row.  To be discrete, and never having taken these things out in the field, I tried running SP-TFB-2 in-ear mics with low gain on an R-09.  I clearly underestimated the gain setting that I should have used, and ended up boosting gain a bit more as each of the four pieces were performed.  However, even with the sometimes loud Brahams Symphony No. 4, I underestimated the gain.  In this case, the mics are seriously unmatched, I have now discovered also.  I did manage to normalize the channels and boost the levels so that it isn't a half bad recording.

All that said, how do you go about setting levels when you know you may have a performance with substantial dynamic range?  In this instance, experience will be something of a guide since I will return.  If you decide gain is too low (or too high) during a recording, will you adjust it while rolling?  Any other thoughts?

Thanks.


 

[Church-Audio]

Last night I recorded a strong orchestra from a good spot just left of center (my season tickets), in about the fifteenth row.  To be discrete, and never having taken these things out in the field, I tried running SP-TFB-2 in-ear mics with low gain on an R-09.  I clearly underestimated the gain setting that I should have used, and ended up boosting gain a bit more as each of the four pieces were performed.  However, even with the sometimes loud Brahams Symphony No. 4, I underestimated the gain.  In this case, the mics are seriously unmatched, I have now discovered also.  I did manage to normalize the channels and boost the levels so that it isn't a half bad recording.

All that said, how do you go about setting levels when you know you may have a performance with substantial dynamic range?  In this instance, experience will be something of a guide since I will return.  If you decide gain is too low (or too high) during a recording, will you adjust it while rolling?  Any other thoughts?

Thanks.


 

That is a very hard question to answer. Let me try.

Setting gain is a product of distortion as we all know. If its too high you over load if its too low your noise floor go's bonkers. I think when your in this type of situation you need to know how quiet you can go before noise is a real issue. One of the ways I would do this is to simply sit in a room. A quiet room and set your levels with some soft music in the background. See how low you can set your recorder before noise is a real issue. You will then have to dump the files onto your computer and boost them. Then you will get a feel for the minimum level you can safely run before noise is becomes an issue.

You can by contrast do the same kind of test for maximum volume that your gear can handle before distortion. So that you have a "ball park" idea about the limits of your gear. As stupid as it sounds make notes as to what settings you set your levels too. So you can reset these levels at show time.

That's the first part of the problem

The second is knowing how much headroom you have at any one setting. That's almost impossible to do with out knowing your gear. Its very hard to record shows why the dynamic range is not known and do it with a small recording device. I would use your external preamp so that you can "stage the gain" have the preamp you own do half of the gain and your recording device do the other half. That way your splitting the headroom up and less likely to overload any one "stage" You still might have to adjust levels but at least you should have more to work with and less noise if you do need to boost later on. Your working with some of the hardest material to tape Classical music. Its not like rock and roll where the dynamics are pretty much fixed. With classical you can have 60db levels all the way up to 105db levels in one song! OUCH. That's a lot for any preamp to handle. and still get good levels to tape, try the idea I suggested about sitting around in a quiet room with some music on to get a feel of your noise threshold. Then at least you will know what the lowest level is you can set before you noise floor gets out of hand.

There are lots of guys around here Like Moke that do a lot of the type of recording your doing. They only difference is they are using very high end preamps and size is not an issue, regardless Moke really knows this type of recording I am sure he will chime in with a few ideas of his own.

[Church-Audio]

clap it out at home.

Set the mics up, and clap a single sharp clap about 2' from the mic. Then repeat it until you get that sharp peak to just nudge the OVER light.
The audience is going to be your loudest influence, unless you've got some dream seating. So setting to the single clap can dial you in, or, at least give you a very solid starting point.
I calibrated my 4060->mma6000->r09 this way at 22.5dB gain at the pre, level 13 on the r09 line-in, and i don't even have to look at the levels, and haven't since at least october.
This puts my peaks at -8db / -6dB musically, and also, perhpas to detriment, goes over in the audience ovations, but not audibly. You can tame the clapping in post.

Great idea.. It makes perfect sense.

[SClassical]

 If you decide gain is too low (or too high) during a recording, will you adjust it while rolling?  Any other thoughts?

Thanks.


 

You should not adjust anything while rolling - that will mess up your recording....If you think it is too low while rolling you have to go home and use an audio program to adjust it. You can adjust during intermission or between pieces.

What Moke said about clapping is good. Also quality of recording depends on where you're sitting. For best results try getting seats front row center that way the audience is behind you and the Orch is in front of you. Also you need to consider composers and the size of the hall. Your gain for a Mozart/Haydn concert is totally different from the gain for a late 19th (or early 20th) centry composer.

If I'm using the R-09 and MMA6000/DPA4060, I usually set my R-09 @8 and adjust my preamp depending on the concert. The more concerts you record the more you know your equipment and the better the result. The first few times it's always a try and erorr situation.

Good luck!

[WiFiJeff]

Chiming in on this, I have found that trial and error (minimizing the error part as much as possible) works pretty well.  As Simon said, sitting up front maximizes your S/N ratio, but for chamber music the applause is going to be the loudest sound you get and I think it a mistake to try to keep this from overing, a distorted clipped clap is - just a clap, and the asshole whooping into your ear can be cut out from the final tape in most cases (except at the opera where they go nuts while the music is still playing, because after all no one is singing).  For DPA4060s > MMA6000 into either a D1 at 8 or a Sonosax MiniR82 at 0dB = 0 dBu, the range of settings I have found (YMMV, but the range should be comparable) is average +20dB for a piano recital up close, +22.5 to 25 dB further back in the hall, +17.5 to 20 for opera front row, +15 or 12.5 for the loudest orchestral music (Bruckner, Mahler) right up front.  With those settings I sometimes have to boost a bit in Wavelab (at 24 bits not a major issue with this gear), and sometimes I come close to running too hot, but no tapes wrecked by clipping lately.  Definitely set and forget, since playing around with equipment is the leading cause of getting bounced from halls ("for life," well not really) especially if you follow the advice to sit up front!

Jeff

[ShawnF]

While the sitting up front idea makes sense from a reducing the audience noise point of view, I'm pretty sure that's not going to give you ideal sound from the orchestra in a large hall (assuming they are on a raised stage directly in front of you).  If you're in the front row and can't see anything but the first row of strings, that's all your mics can "see" too, and you're not going to have any direct sound from any of the other instruments.  It could still work, I suppose, but that doesn't agree with what I've been taught about the best place to hear an orchestral concert.

[WiFiJeff]

While the sitting up front idea makes sense from a reducing the audience noise point of view, I'm pretty sure that's not going to give you ideal sound from the orchestra in a large hall (assuming they are on a raised stage directly in front of you).  If you're in the front row and can't see anything but the first row of strings, that's all your mics can "see" too, and you're not going to have any direct sound from any of the other instruments.  It could still work, I suppose, but that doesn't agree with what I've been taught about the best place to hear an orchestral concert.

Been doing it for years.  No question that it's the best place in the house for a tape.  There is a balance issue for soloists, piano for example (but piano guys sometimes love the over-the-top piano emphasis) but others (violin) need to be taped from there.  Nobody "taught" me this, I just had a Zen awakening the first time I pulled a tape from there.  It would be better to be directly over the conductor's head, but I haven't figured out how to do this yet.  Other advantages: even a hall with lousy acoustics sounds good from the front row, most of the time.  Maybe sit third row for vocal pieces where the soloist is upfront.

Try it, you'll like it.

Jeff

[powertenor]

Hey guys,

I'm new to this stuff.  These questions should probebly be a new topic but since there seems
to be a lot of classical recordists responding here I thought I'de give it a try.
I'm an operatic tenor and have a R-09 and Core binaurals. 
My question is, which are the absolute best stealth mics for recording live opera?
I know my old friend Andrew Richards (another tenor) is using Core's high end binaurals.
(I think I should have bought the high-ends too). Oh well.
If I want these recordings to sound best from speakers which method of recording is best?
Do I really need a pre?  Without a pre should the R-09 be set to low or high gain?

Any help would be great.

Thanks,  Ian DeNolfo

[WiFiJeff]

Hey guys,

I'm new to this stuff.  These questions should probebly be a new topic but since there seems
to be a lot of classical recordists responding here I thought I'de give it a try.
I'm an operatic tenor and have a R-09 and Core binaurals. 
My question is, which are the absolute best stealth mics for recording live opera?
I know my old friend Andrew Richards (another tenor) is using Core's high end binaurals.
(I think I should have bought the high-ends too). Oh well.
If I want these recordings to sound best from speakers which method of recording is best?
Do I really need a pre?  Without a pre should the R-09 be set to low or high gain?

Any help would be great.

Thanks,  Ian DeNolfo

Andrew has been on the Board (saw he cancelled a performance run recently, hope he is okay).  The HEBs are DPA4060s and are fantastic, especially when used (with the original DPA microdot connectors) with the DPA MMA6000 preamp.  People who are nuts about voices sometimes find they prefer the results with cardioid mics, like the Schoeps CCM4, with active cables (to a Sonosax "Lemo" preamp that powers the caps and cable); these are way bigger and harder to wear than the DPAs!  But smaller cardioids are less satisfactory, and the orchestral sound is better with omnis.

Jeff

[Carrera2]

Great discussion.  Thanks to everyone! 

With season tickets in the fifteenth row of a large concert hall, I may have to look and see if I could find a front row seat from which to experiment. 

I heard something I have never before heard the other night.  After a pause between the first and second movements of Brahams Fourth, a guy yells out "right on brother" referring to the conductor. 

Check it out.

Alan

[SClassical]

Thanks...what orchestra is that? Where did you do the recording?

[Carrera2]

Thanks...what orchestra is that? Where did you do the recording?

Oakland/East Bay Symphony 
http://www.oebs.org/page/feb.htm

Paramount Theatre, Oakland, California, 15th row, just left of center

[SClassical]

I know my old friend Andrew Richards (another tenor) is using Core's high end binaurals.

I don't understand why people buy the Core's HEB without the original DPA microdot connectors - it's not as if they are cheaper (are they?). Getting the 4060s with the microdot connectors allow you to use the MMA6000 preamp.

[powertenor]

Thanks for all the replys.
How much of a differnece will using a MMA6000 with my R09 as opposed to the R09's pre's?
If I am on a budget, shouldn't I get better mics first?  How are my Core Binaurals (HighEnd Binaurals)
comparative to other mics?

Ian

[Gutbucket]

You'll need at least a battery box to power the 4060's (doesn't matter if they're Core HEB's or straight from DPA with the microdots), the R-09 won't power them.  Batt box comes with the Cores I believe, or a DPA one is available for the microdot ends.  If you go the standard DPA microdot termination route you can add the DPA MMA6000 pre later if you care to and will benefit from a better, cleaner preamp with more available quiet gain (if needed for something else very quiet).  I don't have a batt box so I can't compare the two, but I really like the sound of the 4060>MMA6000>R09 combination.

PM coming in a few minutes on technique.