Topic: Advice on bar and small venue recording?

[theWilly]

I'm a new member to the board but have been lurking for a bit.  For a little background, I play in bands and have spent a little studio time working on records and have some experience with home recording and live recording of practices and gigs. I am certainly no expert and could use some help.  I live in Dallas, TX and there is plenty of live music here but I've noticed that not a lot of it gets recorded.  I am beginning and new hobby / hopeful business opportunity with a local show promoter.  We want to offer live performance recording to local artists. This will include video and audio recording.  I'll leave any video questions for another section. I'm getting into this because I started out with recording my own band play gigs and the results have been hit and miss, I've experimented some but until recently hadn't put a lot of serious research into it.  I'd like to be more active in the local music scene and I think this would be a great way to contribute and maybe get some free beers now and then. Plus, recording my own band keeps me pretty limited...what with being preoccupied with the whole playing the gig part.

I currently own a Zoom H4n. The unit has a stereo mic pair and inputs for two additional lines.  It can record true 4 channel 24 bit audio that can be exported and mixed.

I am planning to purchase 2 mics. I am currently considering a pair of Rode NT5 mics.  A used pair should run me about $250 on a good day.  I can budget in a little more, but from the limited research I've done as of yet I've come to the understanding that these are a good choice for the money. If you disagree and can offer an alternative, please do, and if you're so gracious to offer some explanation so that I can understand better I'd be very grateful.

As for set up...My current plan is to simply plug the additional mics into the H4n and capture 4 channels.  I am not currently planning to incorporate an 8 channel mixer and such, maybe next year.  I've recorded with the H4n setting at the mixing booth and taking two channels off of the board before.  I wasn't super excited by the results.  With the H4n sitting so far back from the stage and just two feet above the crowd there was a lot of audience noise and the board signal wasn't that great...obviously, it was mixed for the room and not for my recording and who knows what kind of cheapo mics and board I might run into at any given dive bar, I'll trust myself to provide decent mics and position them well.

So...with the H4n and 2 additional mics how would you set up? Would you go with the NT5 or would I gain a lot with the NT55 or something else completely? My budget for a pair of mics is in the $300 - 500 range and I'm not too proud to buy used gear. If there is an absolutely killer mic pair that I can pick up for $600ish and you can convince me, I'll seriously consider it. 

My plan right now is to set the H4N somewhere near the front middle of the stage and another mic to both the left and the right of stage.  The most unobtrusive thing I could do would be to either set them on drum mic stands low to the floor or to possibly set them on larger stands and get them up to about 8ft off the floor (though that would probably only be an option for the out edge mics).  I had also considered keeping the H4n and other two mics all close to the front center and aiming the outer two out towards the edges, but I'm not convinced that is a better idea.

The majority of the music will be fairly loud rock genre music, mostly indie, punk, metal, etc.  I don't forsee any chamber music or rap any time soon.  Typical stages around here might range from 12'w x 12'd up to 24'w x 18'd.  Usually the stage is pretty cramped and when the act has an opportunity to take up more space on a larger than normal stage they'll gladly do so.

Any useful insight and advice you can offer will be highly appreciated.  I'm working a gig in about 2 weeks and would be happy to share a link to results whenever I get it all put together....if anybody cares to see what is going on in the Dallas rock scene.

Thanks!

[Drgiggles1]

I'll leave equipment advise to others. I recommend you record as high as you can get the mics, back where the mixing desk is or if the array of speakers is high above the stage, go up against the balcony railing if the small venue even has one. The music world needs to hear more of Jim Suhler hint hint

[theWilly]

Jim Suhler, eh? With that crazy Monkey Beat? I haven't heard that name in a little while, though I think he still plays out here now and then. I've spent my share of nights over at The Goat. I agree with your sentiment, but I have to work with what is available.

There will be no balconies so that option is out. I think the only way that I'll be able to get high up over the crowd is with stands and that probably won't be possible due to stands being in the audience area or there being seating booths around the perimeters where I'd want to place a stand, plus the issue of running cables across the floor. Most of the ceilings are going to be out of reach unless the venue has a ladder and will let me use it. It would be nice to clamp some of those flexible grippy stands to the roof structure then I could also run the cables up there too, but I don't know how often I could get so lucky. That would put the mics about 24" beneath the solid ceiling, would there be weird sound reflections from that?

[Hypnocracy]

There are 4 inputs on a HN4 right? Running 2 Microphones and Zoom on stage runs the risk of the Vocals and sometimes the Key's/Horns being LOW in the Mix

Consider running your Microphones on the House snake back to the board and doing a Matrix with the SNB...not all SNB feeds will sound like poo...although it has happened to me too....inexpensive Omni's on stage usually sound pretty good...the Aventone's come to mind...I think you will find a lot more TS members running Avantone CK-1 vs the Rode microphones...and you will get 3 sets of capsules (cardioid, omni, and Hyper-cardioid) for $300 a pair.

Here is a link to SNB and two omni's on stage of mine...
http://archive.org/details/bs2011-12-23.16bitFLAC

[theWilly]

the H4n has 2 inputs and built in XY config mics.  So, I can either pull the mixer stereo outs or the 2 mics, but I can't have both on the H4n without converting everything to mono, which I'd rather avoid. Except...I may have a trick, I'll be running an HD camera.  I could potentially run the mics into the camera at the stage and then just use the H4n for mic'ing near the sound booth and pulling the stereo mix there as well. 

The bands I'll typically be recording are using un-mic'ed 4x12 guitar amps.  I would like to get the clear bass and vocal off the mixer.  If I blend that with the H4n recording I can typically get a decent mix, but the guitars can sound weak or muddy in comparison.  I'm hoping that with the additional mics up near the stage I can get some defined guitar signal into the mix.  As for drums...maybe the house will mic them, maybe not...just never know.  I wouldn't mind getting some clean kick signal...but otherwise snares and cymbals seem to carry decently on their own in these smaller rooms so any mic picking up good guitar signal should do okay by the drums as well.

I'm not usually faced with keys or horns, so that helps makes things easier. 

[Marshall7]

My friend has an H4n and he routinely runs two pairs of stereo mics, or one set of external mics and a SBD feed - one with the XLR connections, one with the 1/8" mini jack connection on the H4n.

[theWilly]

Yeah, you are right, I haven't run it that way before and forgot it was an option. 

I went and checked out the upcoming venue last night and I think what I'll end up doing is running the H4n built in mics and feed from the board back at the booth, then I'll set mics up near the stage and run those into the camera. That will keep it fairly simple and save me from running wires all over the place, plus I don't know how many extra plugs they'll have available on their snake. I was able to play with the camera and check light levels and figure out where I'll set the tripod. Luckily I can get a clear shot of the stage without being in the audience's way and their lighting is adequate so the picture looks nice.

[theWilly]

My gear situation has expanded.  I picked up a Zoom R24, it has 8 inputs (6 phantom powered) and records directly to an SD card, it can also be plugged into the computer to run as a DAW controller.

So this gives me a lot more options. Here's the revised plan:

2 SDC's on stands appx 8' above stage, one at the two front corners of the stage

2 mic inputs, L & R - the upcoming venue has one of the nicer sound systems in town and I'm trusting that the engineer will provide a decent mix off the board. I know the mix will include vocals, kick, and bass. I'm not yet sure if they'll mic anything else

stereo xy feed from the H4n setting above the mixing booth (back corner of the venue, about 30' from stage)

I've got 2 inputs left and will use them, because why not?
Senheiser E609 sitting at the drums, will be low to the floor, aimed to pick up toms
AKG C1000S - I'm not entirely sure what to do with this, maybe front center of the stage low to the floor.  Its redundant, but I have it so why not use it. If the signal is useless I can always just not use it in the final mix. I'm hoping if it is several feet in front of the drum set and low to the floor maybe it will pick up something interesting.

Any thoughts or advice?  I think the SDC mics placed high matched with the mixer signal and the XY mic at the board should get decent sources to put something together with.  If there is something very useful I can do with the remaining two I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks for the help guys!  Reading hear and getting opinions has helped a lot.