Topic: 3 mic mix - Where to set levels?

[tms]

Sorry if this has been covered somewhere, but I couldn't find an answer other than listening to the recording with good headphones and making adjustments based on what is heard at the time. 

Is there a 'standard' way to set the levels for a 3 mic mix?  I'd like to try a pair of miniature battery box powered cards in X-Y and an omni CM-300 in the center just under the X-Y pair.  And an MX-100 for the mix.   

My thoughts are that the omni should be set first on the 'blend' channel so that the signal is some value on a stereo VU meter.  Then the right and left cards can be brought up so that the peaks occasionally hit 0db on a stereo VU meter.  I guess my question is, what value should the peaks be set for the blend channel by itself?  -3dB?  -6dB? 

If it's easier to think of it another way, what do you think is a good ratio between the sound from the cards and the sound from the omni?  50/50?  75/25?

If I set the blend channel to peak at -3db and bring it up to 0db with the R and L channels, (and if I did the math right) that would be a 50/50 mix.

If I set the blend channel to peak at -6db and bring it up to 0db with the R and L channels, that would be a 75/25 mix.

Any thoughts on this would be very helpful, thanks in advance

[JasonR]

Not sure what you're trying to achieve exactly, so it's difficult to say what you should try.  One good reason to use a single omni with a pair of directional microphones would be to let the omni handle the lowest two octaves since directional mics often have some degree of low frequency attenuation, particularly hypercards/supercards/shotguns.  In those cases, an extra recording channel would be ideal so you can run it through a crossover and just use the bass response that was otherwise absent.

- Jason

[Roving Sign]

So much depends on the frequency content of each channel - so its pretty hard to estimate what will happen when the channels are combined...

Just use headphones....Id set the stereo pair levels first...then roll in the omni - listen in the headphones...I'd keep it even or just behind the stereo pair...

If there is an opening band - you might want to listen to the omni by itself for a minute - just to get an idea of what its doing...might help in deiciding where to set it...

[tms]

Not sure what you're trying to achieve exactly, so it's difficult to say what you should try.  One good reason to use a single omni with a pair of directional microphones would be to let the omni handle the lowest two octaves since directional mics often have some degree of low frequency attenuation, particularly hypercards/supercards/shotguns.  In those cases, an extra recording channel would be ideal so you can run it through a crossover and just use the bass response that was otherwise absent.

- Jason

I'm like to combine the detailed, bright sound from my mini stereo mics with the cm-300 omni sound [describe it however you want ;-) ] in a much smaller package than my usual pair of cm-300s (split omnis or x-y). Plus, I'm dying to use that 3rd channel on the MX-100!  It's alway been empty before! ;-)

[tms]

Just use headphones....Id set the stereo pair levels first...then roll in the omni - listen in the headphones...I'd keep it even or just behind the stereo pair...

Does this mean you'd want the sound contribution of the omni to be a little less than 50% of the total signal.  That's what I was leaning toward, 25-50% of the total signal.

[JasonR]

If you're going to mix it down to two track live, then I'd use the single omni sparingly.  Consider a wider than normal angle between the mics, and also try a near coincident arrangement like ORTF, DIN(a), NOS, etc.  Adding a single omni is going to take a lot of the stereo cues away from the recording, so I'd use it sparingly.

- Jason

[tms]

If you're going to mix it down to two track live, then I'd use the single omni sparingly.  Consider a wider than normal angle between the mics, and also try a near coincident arrangement like ORTF, DIN(a), NOS, etc.  Adding a single omni is going to take a lot of the stereo cues away from the recording, so I'd use it sparingly.

- Jason

Yes, 2 track live.  Thanks, good advice.

[Roving Sign]

I think the omni will give a flatter, bassier response - so it may not interfere with the stereo-ness too much - but I get your drift...

I dont really know about percentages...like how far you rotate the knob? Its hard to go by that when using two different mics...

[tms]

I think the omni will give a flatter, bassier response - so it may not interfere with the stereo-ness too much - but I get your drift...

I dont really know about percentages...like how far you rotate the knob? Its hard to go by that when using two different mics...

I _think_ I can use the SVU meter during setup or the first song by first setting the omni peaks at -6dB (25%) or -3dB (50%) then rolling up the right and left cardioids to 0dB peaks (100%).  This assumes I can make all the adjustments in a period of time where the sound level and peaks are all about the same.  Even if it just ends up being somewhere in that ballpark, that would be good I think.

[MattH]

If you're going to mix it down to two track live, then I'd use the single omni sparingly.  Consider a wider than normal angle between the mics, and also try a near coincident arrangement like ORTF, DIN(a), NOS, etc.  Adding a single omni is going to take a lot of the stereo cues away from the recording, so I'd use it sparingly.

- Jason

Sparingly such that you barely hear it in the mix. It's a fine line between too thin and too thick. Use omni center outdoors and card center indoors. It's hard not to like a good 3 mic mix.

[tms]

Sparingly such that you barely hear it in the mix. It's a fine line between too thin and too thick. Use omni center outdoors and card center indoors. It's hard not to like a good 3 mic mix.

How would you use a card center indoors?  Point the center card straight forward and run split omni's as the L and R ch?

[gdplusmore]

If you're going to mix it down to two track live, then I'd use the single omni sparingly.  Consider a wider than normal angle between the mics, and also try a near coincident arrangement like ORTF, DIN(a), NOS, etc.  Adding a single omni is going to take a lot of the stereo cues away from the recording, so I'd use it sparingly.

- Jason

Sparingly such that you barely hear it in the mix. It's a fine line between too thin and too thick. Use omni center outdoors and card center indoors. It's hard not to like a good 3 mic mix.

can somebody explain advantage of why you would use omni center outdoors and card center iindoors ?

For indoor show what would you recoomend if you had the choice of :

nak cm-300 cp-4  shotgun    nak cm-300 cp3 super pinpoint omni     nak cm-300 cp4 shotgun
or
nak cm-300 cp-4  shotgun    nak cm-300 cp3 super pinpoint omni     nak cm-300 cp4 shotgun

[gdplusmore]

correction :

can somebody explain advantage of why you would use omni center outdoors and card center iindoors ?


For indoor show what would you recoomend if you had the choice of :

nak cm-300 cp-4  shotgun    nak cm-300 cp3 super pinpoint omni     nak cm-300 cp4 shotgun
or
nak cm-300 cp-4  shotgun    nak cm-300 cp-1   nak cm-300 cp4 shotgun

[Brian Skalinder]

can somebody explain advantage of why you would use omni center outdoors and card center iindoors ?

Indoor venues typically have a lot of reverberant, resonant sound that's not always pleasant.  Using the cardioid indoors would provide some ambience to the shotguns while still minimizing the potentially unpleasant effects of the room.  Using the omni outdoors would provide even more ambience to the shotguns than the cardioid without risk of picking up the unpleasantness of the room (since there is no room outdoors).  No reason you couldn't run the card outdoors, it just wouldn't open up the recording as nicely as the omni.  Likewise, you could run the omni indoors, but in opening up the recording more than card, it would pick up more of the potentially unpleasant room.

[tms]

can somebody explain advantage of why you would use omni center outdoors and card center iindoors ?

Indoor venues typically have a lot of reverberant, resonant sound that's not always pleasant.  Using the cardioid indoors would provide some ambience to the shotguns while still minimizing the potentially unpleasant effects of the room.  Using the omni outdoors would provide even more ambience to the shotguns than the cardioid without risk of picking up the unpleasantness of the room (since there is no room outdoors).  No reason you couldn't run the card outdoors, it just wouldn't open up the recording as nicely as the omni.  Likewise, you could run the omni indoors, but in opening up the recording more than card, it would pick up more of the potentially unpleasant room.

So really a 3 mic mix was meant for rounding out the sound from a pair of shotgun mics?

[Brian Skalinder]

So really a 3 mic mix was meant for rounding out the sound from a pair of shotgun mics?

I don't know if that's why Nak designed their mixer for 3 channels, but that's how tapers have used the setup, yes.  Shotguns provide a very (to me) tunnel-y, colored sound, not very natural at all, and the omni/card mixed in helps the recording sound more natural and open.  Some view it as the best of both worlds - the very direct sound of the shotguns with a little ambience mixed in.

[MattH]

So really a 3 mic mix was meant for rounding out the sound from a pair of shotgun mics?

I don't know if that's why Nak designed their mixer for 3 channels, but that's how tapers have used the setup, yes.  Shotguns provide a very (to me) tunnel-y, colored sound, not very natural at all, and the omni/card mixed in helps the recording sound more natural and open.  Some view it as the best of both worlds - the very direct sound of the shotguns with a little ambience mixed in.

All of my 3 mic mixes have been with cards as L/R. I like an omni for center mic when taping on-stage but otherwise card for center indoors.

3 mics just seem to pick up more of the overall image to me.

[taper420]

I'm pretty much just getting started with serious recording. I've patched for years with my minidisc, but just now I'm starting to take the whole setup much more serious. I have a pair of Sennheiser me66's that I've been using for a while and I'm very pleased with the crisp, clear sound. I'll concede that their is a bit of coloring but I don't notice a tunnel effect. It's not like having toilet paper rolls attached to your ears, it really just does a good job of making the music sound closer. That said I've been thinging about adding a third mic to the mix as well, mostly to get a better bass responce. You know the shotguns I have, what do you think would be a nice third mic to add to the mix? Keep in mind the low end is what is important here. One with a choice between omni and card would be great for the versitiity. Price range should be around the same as the shotguns.
I'm gonna record to three seperate channels and mix later. I've been putting alot of full shows on dvd and the third channel would go right into the 2.1 mix. So for the two scenarios of a 2.1 mix and for mixing down to stereo would I want to cut everything above a certain frequency on the onmi/card and let the shotguns pick up from there? Or should the omni/card be brought in with all frequencies intact?
And just a quick technical question. I always point my shotguns right at the speaker stacks. The closest term I can find for this is NOS but the angle isn't always 90 degrees. Whats the technical term for my setup? And if I crossed the mics in a setup closer to XY, how would this change the sound? All of the mic setups are pretty exact in terms of degrees, but I know the flattest responce on the shotgun is directly in front, and most of the setups are refering to cards. So am I wrong to want the mics pointing directly at the stacks? It's always sounded pretty good. Ok thanks for the help.

[Brian Skalinder]

So for the two scenarios of a 2.1 mix and for mixing down to stereo would I want to cut everything above a certain frequency on the onmi/card and let the shotguns pick up from there? Or should the omni/card be brought in with all frequencies intact?

I'd mix the omni/card in fully intact.

And just a quick technical question. I always point my shotguns right at the speaker stacks. The closest term I can find for this is NOS but the angle isn't always 90 degrees. Whats the technical term for my setup?

PAS.  Point At Stacks. 

And if I crossed the mics in a setup closer to XY, how would this change the sound? All of the mic setups are pretty exact in terms of degrees, but I know the flattest responce on the shotgun is directly in front, and most of the setups are refering to cards. So am I wrong to want the mics pointing directly at the stacks? It's always sounded pretty good. Ok thanks for the help.

With Shotguns, trust your ears and keep running PAS.  Most of the configs like NOS, DIN, ORTF, MS, Blumlein baffled omnis, etc. are designed for use with specific polar patterns (omni, subcards, cards, hypers, figure-8 - not shotguns).