Topic: 788T

[Doozer]

Can anyone tell me where the best place might be to swing a deal for a new Sound devices 788T.
Thanks, Rick

[boojum]

Rick, without a gun you will pay the same price everywhere.  So, buy from a dealer you like and trust.  I shop with Jerry Bruck at Posthorn.  His service is very good, he is an old pro at audio so he can be quite helpful, he is a very nice guy and interesting.  There are lots of shills out there selling this.  I had one salesperson try to sweeten the deal by offering to let me have the plastic case the memory card came in.  What a joke!  What would she have done with it otherwise?  Throw it away?   LOL

I have not regretted buying this recorder one bit and use my other recorders almost never now.  It is only slightly larger than the other 7's from SD and is better inside.  Good luck.

Cheers

[notlance]

I don't know anyone who would "swing a deal" for a 788T, but I'd be happy if someone proved me wrong.  When I bought mine I called Full Compass first to quote me a price for a 788T plus some mics thinking they'd sell me the 788T at "full price" and heavily discount the mics.  It didn't happen.

So I bought mine new from b&h to get the 2% Microsoft cashback.  Oh, and I think shipping was included.  Not much, but something.  If you are going to buy new, you might as well get the 788T-SSD since the added cost for the SSD is reasonable IMHO.

[su6oxone]

If you are going to buy new, you might as well get the 788T-SSD since the added cost for the SSD is reasonable IMHO.

I dunno, $500 for the SSD version seems like a lot considering that 32GB (8GB per channel) CF cards can be purchased for under $80 now and the CF standard goes up to 128GB (32GB/channel).

[notlance]

My point is the 788T-SSD has a bigger drive (256 gig vs 160 gig) and the lowest price newegg has for a 256G SSD is 750 bucks, so I think the $500 upcharge is reasonable.  Plus I love the SSD's 1,000,000 hour MTBF.  When your dropping $6k, what's an extra $500?  Chump change.

But I understand your point too.

[Doozer]

Thanks for the input, I'll select the dealer I trust.

Thanks again, Rick

[boojum]

Rick, any hassles you have with the 788T will be handled by SD.  They are righteous.  They stand behind what they make and you have their iron-clad warranty for the first year.  Other than putting a 9mm hole in it just about everything is covered.  And good turnaround time.

As for the dealer, find someone you like as he is your interface on the retail end.  SD is the warranty.  The 788T is a nice box.  The Nagra folks keep dissing it.  They do it so much I am beginning to think they are pretty insecure.  I do not see SD dissing Nagra.  But that is enough for many new threads.  Good luck if you do take the plunge.

[John Willett]

As for the dealer, find someone you like as he is your interface on the retail end.  SD is the warranty.

Yes

  The 788T is a nice box.

Yes

The Nagra folks keep dissing it.

No - I have not seen this at all.


The Nagra VI and the SD 788T are two different devices designed for two different purposes.

I have a Nagra VI, but I certainly *don't* diss the 788T.

The mic. pres and the digital converters are a little better in the Nagra and the Nagra runs cool.  But the 788T is much smaller, has 8 inputs and is the only portable capable of taking AES42 microphones.

If you want the highest quality in portable audio recording for high quality CD release, especially classical, then the Nagra VI is the better option.

If you are doing film work and need a flexible high quality recorder to use on the run then the 788T is the best option.

Both the Nagra VI and SD 788T are very high quality units and both are streets ahead of anything else.

[marvin100]

The mic. pres and the digital converters are a little better in the Nagra and the Nagra runs cool. 

Is the mic pre/converter evaluation a consensus? The only person I see consistently and clearly stating this on the net is you--is this just your opinion or have there been studies or comparisons done? I'm genuinely interested.

As for the running temperature--is there some benefit to running cool? Have there been any reports of the SD's heat becoming a problem? There's nothing about it on the SD user message boards (and there's a testimonial from a user who worked at high temps deep underground for an extended period). Again, genuinely curious if there's something I'm not aware of.

[John Willett]

The mic. pres and the digital converters are a little better in the Nagra and the Nagra runs cool. 

Is the mic pre/converter evaluation a consensus? The only person I see consistently and clearly stating this on the net is you--is this just your opinion or have there been studies or comparisons done? I'm genuinely interested.

It's not only me saying this - but we are *not* saying that one is good and the other is bad, just that both are excellent but one has the edge over the other in this respect.

As for the running temperature--is there some benefit to running cool? Have there been any reports of the SD's heat becoming a problem? There's nothing about it on the SD user message boards (and there's a testimonial from a user who worked at high temps deep underground for an extended period). Again, genuinely curious if there's something I'm not aware of.

It's not a practical problem really - but electronics that run cool tend to have longer long-term reliability - and note the advice on the SD website about mounting the 788T in a bag.

[marvin100]

The mic. pres and the digital converters are a little better in the Nagra and the Nagra runs cool. 

Is the mic pre/converter evaluation a consensus? The only person I see consistently and clearly stating this on the net is you--is this just your opinion or have there been studies or comparisons done? I'm genuinely interested.

It's not only me saying this - but we are *not* saying that one is good and the other is bad, just that both are excellent but one has the edge over the other in this respect.

Oh of course, completely understood. I certainly wouldn't imply you were belittling the SD. As I've searched around, though (which I've done quite a bit over the last couple months), I've seen a few scattered NVI owners saying this (usually with doubt and "personal preference" qualifications, and virtually always in Nagra threads), but you're the only one saying it consistently and frequently (and in SD threads).

So am I right in assuming you speak only from your own experience? Or is there some data/research/shootout/consensus I'm unaware of? Again, genuinely curious and cautiously skeptical of your statement, since you're on the record as being a bit of a Nagra partisan and your statement was made with no evidence beyond your own preference but a tone of certainly that suggests something more.

If it's simply preference, of course, it is absolutely beyond the realm of debate, as it would be with microphones, pre-amps, guitarists, women, or whisky, a glass of which (Ardbeg Uigeadail is my preference tonight) I'll gladly raise to both these fine machines in a matter of minutes.

As for the running temperature--is there some benefit to running cool? Have there been any reports of the SD's heat becoming a problem? There's nothing about it on the SD user message boards (and there's a testimonial from a user who worked at high temps deep underground for an extended period). Again, genuinely curious if there's something I'm not aware of.

It's not a practical problem really - but electronics that run cool tend to have longer long-term reliability - and note the advice on the SD website about mounting the 788T in a bag.

Ah, okay. Then I doubt it's a problem, since SD recorders have become industry standard in part for their ability to hold up very well over the long term and under extreme physical and environmental distress.

[John Willett]

SD recorders have become industry standard in part for their ability to hold up very well over the long term and under extreme physical and environmental distress.

Which is the same reason that Nagra recorders became the industry standard and remained so for over 50 years. 

A friend of mine was a beta tester for the original SD 744T - he sent it back in bits - SD delayed the launch for a year getting it right.

SD became the unit of choice for film and TV work because of the best combination of size - quality - reliability when using it over the shoulder.

The Nagra VI and SD 788T don't really compete with each other because when you have decided what you want to do one or the other will stand out as the best unit to get.

[marvin100]

SD recorders have become industry standard in part for their ability to hold up very well over the long term and under extreme physical and environmental distress.

Which is the same reason that Nagra recorders became the industry standard and remained so for over 50 years. 

And why I clearly wasn't making a comparison of any kind.

A friend of mine was a beta tester for the original SD 744T - he sent it back in bits - SD delayed the launch for a year getting it right.

Glad to hear_say that!

("so that mic pre/digital conversion statement was just your personal preference, then, right?" he asks again)

[JackHenry]

There's nothing about it on the SD user message boards

Really? Where are you looking??

Here is one on the forum about possibly using it for a BBQ at the end of the day

Another one here in the same forum about possibly using the SSD to try and get around the heat problem

And yet another in the forum on the SD site about heat problems

Here is an article in the Sound Device support section about the heat problems

[boojum]

The SD CEO's comments on the 788T and heat (nit just a link):

"All that processing power generates heat. The numerous “systems” in the unit, such as its wide bandwidth analog circuitry, low-noise A/D and D/A, and the powerful DSP processor generate heat. The primary cooling mechanism of the 788T is its aluminum top and bottom panels. Any electronic component drawing appreciable power (ie. generating heat) is thermally bonded to these aluminum panels. This construction efficiently wicks heat out of the unit and keeps internal temperatures cool. In fact, the 788T runs nearly 10 deg C cooler than the 744T while having twice the I/O. While the 788T is designed to operate in extreme temperature environments, the cooler it runs, the longer lasting it will be.

When in operation, it is very important that the top and bottom panels have a bit of ‘breathing room’, especially when operating in a bag. A production bag filled with a 788T and numerous wireless systems and insulating (foam) dividers keeps heat in, rather than allowing it to dissipate."

If we can believe Tatooles it is designed to run hot, it runs cooler than the 744T and should not be run in a closed bag.

FWIW I recorded six tracks at 24/44.1 at ambient room temp 70F.  There was no appreciable heat on the unit.  It was not run in the sunshine.  It was not run inside a bag.  It was run on top of a wooden table.  I have not noticed appreciable heat in other instances.  It seems the heat problems posted to the SD board are all about 788T's in a bag with little or no air circulation.  They are, therefore effectively insulated from cooling, swaddled in the bag as it were.

As I have not ever used a Nagra of any flavor I keep my mouth shut on that subject.   

[marvin100]

There's nothing about it on the SD user message boards

Really? Where are you looking??

Here is one on the forum about possibly using it for a BBQ at the end of the day

Another one here in the same forum about possibly using the SSD to try and get around the heat problem

These two links go to the same post.

The thread ends with SD founder Jon Tatooles stating definitively "We haven't seen a unit fail specifically because of it getting too hot." Nobody disagrees, and the thread ends with the original complaint going to tech support, with the line "When an error occurs, it will occur when the recorder is powered on and therefor the recorder will be warm when the error occurs. This fact alone isn't enough to verify that the error was caused by the recorder's temperature."

The OP never wrote back to reaffirm that it was temperature that caused his problems, so I suspect it wasn't (although of course I don't know for sure).

Also in the same thread are a number of people saying they use their recorders in 40C+ temperatures for long periods of time without issue.

And yet another in the forum on the SD site about heat problems

Looks to me like the OP's problem had nothing to do with heat:

"Currently there is no indication that the battery is charging while the unit is on.

That will be changed in an upcoming firmware update."

but there was still some heat-related news in that thread:

"I´ve learned from my dealer today that units beyond (newer) serial HP0508246004 have a new mic-pre board installed that radiates less heat. They told me since this revision they haven´t had any heat-related issues with their rental machines. The 788T still gets very hot but they claim it´s not a problem to use bags without ventilation." (March, 2005)

And

"788T recorders manufactured before September 8, 2008 are eligible for a no-charge hardware update." (May, 2009)

Here is an article in the Sound Device support section about the heat problems

This just explains that the body of the unit is its heat sink and is therefore designed to get hot. The heat is radiated from the internals (esp. the mic pres) by direct thermal bonding to the aluminum cover plates. Aluminum, as anyone who's cooked or grilled with foil should know, radiates heat extremely efficiently and cools very, very fast. There is no mention of a problem or loss of functionality or failure.

So what I've found is that the units get hot, and that freaks some people out, but that the company doesn't consider it a problem and has heard of no failures as a result of heat, but that it upgraded the hardware and will bring older units up to date for free anyway.

So the above links include exactly one report of decreased functionality due to heat, which ended somewhat inconclusively but with the distinct likelihood that the problem may not have been heat related, and the user never posted an update. Among the thousands of units being operated every day in bags and all sorts of extreme and demanding locations (Antarctica? Check. Gold mines of South Africa? Check. Mt. Everest? Check. Hardcore punk clubs in Seoul and Tokyo? Check. The White House? Check. My bathroom? Check.), that is a pretty impressive track record.

Meanwhile, Nagra doesn't seem to have a user forum, so there doesn't appear to be any way to identify if its users have had any problems with their machines. AFAIK, of course--correct me if I'm wrong.

I guess SD's probably foolish to make that kind of thing public. Or confident.

So, yeah. That's all I found. It seems most of the "problems" are from people alarmed at the way the machine cools itself, a side effect of which is that its body gets hot. So I guess it's a genuine "problem" for those among us who really can't stand being near hot things, but as the delicious cup of coffee next to my mouse hand suggests, I'm not one of those people.




Of course, if I'm missing anything important, please let me know. That's always possible at my age.

[su6oxone]

Not a 788T, but I've noticed in the past that when I was running my 702 outdoors in the summer when it was sunny and hot at a festival and the unit was running continuously for hours (5+) in a closed bag that does get really hot but also it started to emit a 'whining' type of high frequency humming sound.  After turning it off and letting it cool down it goes away.  It didn't seem to affect the tape, and only happened in that all day running in the sun in a closed bag scenario. 

I asked on the SD forum what that might be and should I be concerned but they didn't seem to have any idea so I dropped it and it hasn't come back yet (but I leave the bag open when running for extended periods in hot, sunny weather now).

[JackHenry]

These two links go to the same post.

Oops, fixed..... It's fixed in my original post. It should have gone here

[marvin100]

The mic. pres and the digital converters are a little better in the Nagra

Is the mic pre/converter evaluation a consensus? The only person I see consistently and clearly stating this on the net is you--is this just your opinion or have there been studies or comparisons done? I'm genuinely interested.

It's not only me saying this - but we are *not* saying that one is good and the other is bad, just that both are excellent but one has the edge over the other in this respect.

Oh of course, completely understood. I certainly wouldn't imply you were belittling the SD. As I've searched around, though (which I've done quite a bit over the last couple months), I've seen a few scattered NVI owners saying this (usually with doubt and "personal preference" qualifications, and virtually always in Nagra threads), but you're the only one saying it consistently and frequently (and in SD threads).

So am I right in assuming you speak only from your own experience? Or is there some data/research/shootout/consensus I'm unaware of? Again, genuinely curious and cautiously skeptical of your statement, since you're on the record as being a bit of a Nagra partisan and your statement was made with no evidence beyond your own preference but a tone of certainly that suggests something more.

If it's simply preference, of course, it is absolutely beyond the realm of debate, as it would be with microphones, pre-amps, guitarists, women, or whisky, a glass of which (Ardbeg Uigeadail is my preference tonight) I'll gladly raise to both these fine machines in a matter of minutes.

Still wondering about this, John.

I know I'm not the only one curious if your authoritative-sounding pronouncement rests on anything other than your own personal taste. Surely you have the time to respond--I see you've been answering plenty of questions and dishing no shortage of advice online.

(Interestingly enough, it was another thread from which you unceremoniously disappeared--only after another user pressed you to more openly disclose your affiliation, I might add--that alerted me to your employment at Sennheiser/Neumann, a bit of information that has given me at least a sliver of a reason to think you might have access to actual test data or anything other than your own preference for the machine you own).

[John Willett]

Still wondering about this, John.

Answered by PM