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Author Topic: 722 Issue  (Read 8564 times)

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Offline MattD

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722 Issue
« on: April 02, 2005, 12:47:22 AM »
This static issue appeared twice in one part of a recording (the stealth from this past week). I'm checking through the rest of it, but have no idea what to make of it. Since it's in both channels, I want to rule out cables for this one. Is this the sound of cell phone impact? Something else? Help!

24/96 FLAC
http://home.comcast.net/~mattdenardo/prob1.flac
http://home.comcast.net/~mattdenardo/prob2.flac

mp3
http://home.comcast.net/~mattdenardo/prob1.mp3
http://home.comcast.net/~mattdenardo/prob2.mp3
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Offline MattD

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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2005, 01:00:14 AM »
Fuck. It appears at least 4 more times in this show. However, I don't think it occurred at all during the Bridge show, but I was running 24/44.1 for that. I posted this to the SD support forum as well.
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Offline MattD

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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2005, 01:12:57 AM »
Hmm ... there is some good news here. The first glitch doesn't appear when I play back on the 722 itself. Perhaps I am having a FW transfer problem here. I'll retransfer in the AM and report back.
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Offline Diggin

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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2005, 01:18:56 AM »
if you are doing other things while transfering it could cause an error, good luck in the morning
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Offline Lil Kim Jong-Il

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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2005, 10:45:13 AM »
if you are doing other things while transfering it could cause an error, good luck in the morning

How can a firewire transfer of a file become corrupt due to processor load?
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Offline Brian

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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2005, 11:54:11 AM »
if you are doing other things while transfering it could cause an error, good luck in the morning

How can a firewire transfer of a file become corrupt due to processor load?

if for some reason he has more than 3 firewire devices daisy chained while transfering he could experience data transfer problems.  whether or not it is due to CPU i'm not sure.

could also be a bad firewire cable or port maybe

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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2005, 12:01:13 PM »
your are dumping a lot of bits to your hard drive, if you only have 1 drive and are doing things such as listening to music, download, or what not you are using another part of the hard drive, it could miss 1-2 bits here and there because you are causing arm and blatters to work to their max
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Offline MattD

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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2005, 12:44:36 PM »
Well, it was the only thing I was doing at the time. The cable I was using has never had an issue before. Is it possible to make an md5 of the files while they're on the 722 and then compare once they're transferred? That'd give me a little peace of mind for now.

No daisy-chain, either. Trying a retransfer now.
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Offline Lil Kim Jong-Il

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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2005, 06:53:15 PM »
your are dumping a lot of bits to your hard drive, if you only have 1 drive and are doing things such as listening to music, download, or what not you are using another part of the hard drive, it could miss 1-2 bits here and there because you are causing arm and blatters to work to their max

I've heard people say that before; that is why I asked the question.  Hardrives, even over firewire, do not work in a way that you could lose a bit or two somewhere.  It is not a stream protocol between the drive and the host where bits get dropped due to the host processor being overtaxed and too busy to service the stream.   Reading from a harddrive is a block access protocol with the host requesting blocks from the drive controller via the firewire link, so there should never be a problem except at the block level.

I understand that there could be issues if there are too many things hanging off the firewire controller, but I would expect that to cause more of a problem with throughput or block buffer overfolws if the combined traffic oversubscribes the fw controller.

Matt, yes you can MD5 the files in place on the 722.  If you were to do that and then MD5 the files after they were transferred, it would ensure that they were correct (assuming that the errored blocks are random).  If you don't have faith in the 722 firewire drivers, that would be a good way to do it.   If you want to exercise the 722 to build confidence, you could just write a script to md5 a bunch of files repeatedly and then bark if the script detects a mismatched MD5 on a subsequent pass.  That would detect  errors appearing in random blocks.  If you want to test against the case of repeated errors, you can transfer to the host, then transfer a copy back to the 722 and MD5 the file and it's copy off the 722 compared to the copy left on the host.   It's possible but unlikely that the transfer back would exactly undo any original error.



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Offline MattD

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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2005, 07:49:35 PM »
It has to be an issue with either the FW driver implementation or the FW host on that particular laptop I'm using to transfer. The solution for now is to do a real-time SPDIF transfer or transfer multiple times. I don't know of any program that shows the differences in the file, in case I miss any visually/by ear.
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Offline scb

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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2005, 12:41:32 AM »
sell the pismo!

Offline MattD

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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2005, 08:30:26 AM »
Has anyone else had this issue? Are two transfers of the same file always identical? Several locals have offered to let me try their machines for a transfer. If I can't find someone in the immediate area, I will take one of you up on the offer.
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Offline Lil Kim Jong-Il

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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2005, 09:21:25 AM »
Has anyone else had this issue? Are two transfers of the same file always identical?


I have not had this issue.  I'll try to run seom tests today.

Edit: Multiple copies to the host tested identical with each other and host copy tests identical to the original still on the 722 HD running the comparison over the FW link.  The test file was 450M - I didn't have a large file on there to test.   

Also, I was running compiles and regression tests while the 722 transfers and comparison over the link were running, so my machine was getting shit hammered. 

fwiw, I'm running the latest firmware.


« Last Edit: April 04, 2005, 11:55:00 AM by Lil' Kim Jong-Il »
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Offline Lil Kim Jong-Il

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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2005, 11:12:37 PM »
Matt,

did you figure out your problem?

I'm seeing something similar now.  I did a transfer from DAT to the 722.  With this thread in mind I ran a test and I did get a cmp failure between the file on the 722 and the one on my HD.  I then did another copy from the 722 to the local drive and the second copy came up short compared to the original copy and the one on the HD.

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Offline MattD

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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2005, 11:59:07 PM »
I just did the transfer on a friend's G4 15" PB and the MD5s matched up the first time. I still cannot get a matching transfer on my G3 Pismo. I will check the audio in the files later (tomorrow, perhaps) and make sure it's "good" and static-free.

Of course, this means that my problem really isn't solved. A new laptop isn't the answer right now, not after shelling out for the 722.
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Offline Lil Kim Jong-Il

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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2005, 07:51:10 AM »
Thanks.  I'll let you know what I find when I try again.  Everything was cool when I ran that previous test.

I sold my A2496 a little too soon I think.
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Offline trajhip2000

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Re: 722/744T Issue
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2005, 02:29:45 PM »
as posted on the SD support forum, I am seeing the same or similar problems with my 744T - random glitches that show up on files transferred thru FW to my Dell 8400. when transferring 4 files at a time 1-2 files will typically show up with glitches. the md5s on files that copy over clean are identical to the originals, but not on glitched files. happens with both 24/44.1 and 24/96 files.

unfortunately I discovered this *after* I had "moved" 4 shows to my PC, so I don't have the originals any more...

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Offline krebsy

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Re: 722/744T Issue
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2005, 03:15:35 PM »
unfortunately I discovered this *after* I had "moved" 4 shows to my PC, so I don't have the originals any more...

Ouch!!   :'(  +T to you folks for helping iron out the bugs on these units until I can snag one!
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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2005, 03:24:31 PM »
+T to you folks for helping iron out the bugs on these units until I can snag one!

QFT!  ever since i decided on a 722 i've been keeping my eye on these threads.  tons of great info!

Offline MattD

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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2005, 03:30:25 PM »
I'm going to try the OSX 10.3.8 update and see what that does for 722 transfers on my system. Is it easy to roll back OS updates so I can try 10.3.4 and 10.3.2 as well?
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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2005, 10:25:05 PM »
i just don't get how these can be problems from transferring?
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Offline MattD

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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2005, 10:37:36 PM »
If I play the files back from the 722, they're perfect. Same goes for the transfer I did to my friend's computer. There is something that isn't playing nice in the combination of 722, my computer, and my OS version. I haven't figured out what it is yet, or maybe it only occurs in this combination.
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Offline Diggin

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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2005, 10:48:39 PM »
could it be the mac??? ;)
what version of firewire does the 722 have?  I know Firewire800 and one or more versions of OSX had issues but I am pretty sure they fixed it
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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2005, 12:29:48 AM »
I need to do a little more testing, but my problem seems to have been solved by replacing my Dell-supplied FW card with a D-Link card.

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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2005, 03:28:19 AM »
i just don't get how these can be problems from transferring?
me too but the more i see folks having issues, FW might not have the robst error correction built in like many other common computer interfaces and it just fills the gap w/ zero's.

md5 seems like the way to go but it complicates the whole transfer process when it should just be a simple "drag and drop" task.  I also don't see SD being able to fix this since there are so many different types of computers out there and so many different types of 1394 controllers.  The only way i can see resolution if it is a problem w/ the FW would be to make a utility to do the transfers and seamlessly integrate some sort of file varification

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Offline MattD

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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2005, 09:28:33 AM »
As one who is using the md5 process, it's not that much more complicated: Drag files into xACT, md5 them, drag to desktop, md5 and compare. The only thing that takes really long is md5ing the files on the 722, since their FW interface is not yet speed-optimized. For 6 GB of files, the md5 step took 10-15 minutes on my friend's Powerbook.

It's still faster than a real-time transfer, and I can live with the extra time it takes to *KNOW* I have a perfect transfer.
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Offline Lil Kim Jong-Il

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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2005, 09:54:58 AM »
I also don't see SD being able to fix this since there are so many different types of computers out there and so many different types of 1394 controllers. The only way i can see resolution if it is a problem w/ the FW would be to make a utility to do the transfers and seamlessly integrate some sort of file varification

Creative Labs seem to have figured out the cross platform compatability issues.  I don't hear about problems with JB3 file transfers.  Do they use a transfer utility or is it drag and drop?

I need to do a little more testing, but my problem seems to have been solved by replacing my Dell-supplied FW card with a D-Link card.

Do you know what controllers were in use on those two cards?  Which OS and which you using manufacturer drivers or the OS default drivers?
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Re: 722 Issue
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2005, 10:24:09 AM »
I also don't see SD being able to fix this since there are so many different types of computers out there and so many different types of 1394 controllers. The only way i can see resolution if it is a problem w/ the FW would be to make a utility to do the transfers and seamlessly integrate some sort of file varification

Creative Labs seem to have figured out the cross platform compatability issues.  I don't hear about problems with JB3 file transfers.  Do they use a transfer utility or is it drag and drop?

I need to do a little more testing, but my problem seems to have been solved by replacing my Dell-supplied FW card with a D-Link card.

Do you know what controllers were in use on those two cards?  Which OS and which you using manufacturer drivers or the OS default drivers?

I use the creative utility, it sucks as an interface to the JB3, but for doing transfers it just works once you get it up and running.  linux and macs use a third party utility and there are also third party utilities for the pc, none incl. the creative pkg does error checking as far as i know.  I'd be curious to have someone run and system monitor on thier computer to show CPU/MEM/IO statistics to see if they are encountering problems related to taxing the machine.



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