Topic: 722 limiter function

[ts]

I found myself having to use the limiter on a recent show cause I felt I had no other option, or did I? Show had already started and levels were real hot, gain all the way down. Couldn't get to the mic bodies to switch the pad, so in a panic I activated the limiter. I mean it worked, I was able to increase gain, but I thought I read a post saying never to use the limiter. What else could i have done or should have done? What did the limiter do?

[MattD]

1. the limiter is a good thing for shows with a HUGE dynamic range (jazz from on stage, for example)
2. in your situation, you could have switched the 722 to line in and left phantom on (722 allows for 48V in line input mode)
3. limiter did just what it says - it kicks in at -6 dBFS. So long as the limiter light wasn't on all night, you probably won't notice it ... but if it was constantly on, the recording is probably compressed to hell

[ts]

So line-in was the answer, thanks! Yep, the lights were on so it def. got compressed, meaning not a whole lot of dynamic range? Stack taping at close range sounds compressed anyway, right?

[it-goes-to-eleven]

The limiter on the 722 works very well though I haven't used it in a long while..  I wouldn't hesitate to use it in some situations.  Try running some hot output into your 722 while monitoring with headphones to listen to how the 722 handles clipping with and without the limiter.

The GOTCHA you may be thinking of is the bass roll off feature.  If you clip with BRO on you will get fairly severe distortion.  I'd say it is f'n terrible.

So if you must run BRO the limiter is also advised.  But be warned.. One night I ran BRO+limiter thinking I'd be okay (sound devices said it would) and a LOUD clapper right next to my mics still caused clipping and distortion.  In that situation I think there was even some distortion when the claps were only at about -1 or so.

I usually have 48v on line turned off. That allows me to easily turn off 48v (for cable swaps, etc) by flipping those switches.  I know there is a short cut to turn 48v on and off but I do it so seldom that I can never remember it..

[oleg]

So line-in was the answer, thanks! Yep, the lights were on so it def. got compressed, meaning not a whole lot of dynamic range? Stack taping at close range sounds compressed anyway, right?

the line in is add about 40 db  attenuation what might be to much, i only use it to record gun shots fx or jet engines .
  better solution is to hold barrel pads which can drop 15 to 30 db,  comes very handy for high mic  levels .
do you sure you was running in low level setting  on the mic pre  and it still was to much ?

[ts]

So line-in was the answer, thanks! Yep, the lights were on so it def. got compressed, meaning not a whole lot of dynamic range? Stack taping at close range sounds compressed anyway, right?

the line in is add about 40 db  attenuation what might be to much, i only use it to record gun shots fx or jet engines .
  better solution is to hold barrel pads which can drop 15 to 30 db,  comes very handy for high mic  levels .
do you sure you was running in low level setting  on the mic pre  and it still was to much ?

No, had it on normal. maybe that was adding to the problem.

[ts]

The limiter on the 722 works very well though I haven't used it in a long while..  I wouldn't hesitate to use it in some situations.  Try running some hot output into your 722 while monitoring with headphones to listen to how the 722 handles clipping with and without the limiter.

The GOTCHA you may be thinking of is the bass roll off feature.  If you clip with BRO on you will get fairly severe distortion.  I'd say it is f'n terrible.

So if you must run BRO the limiter is also advised.  But be warned.. One night I ran BRO+limiter thinking I'd be okay (sound devices said it would) and a LOUD clapper right next to my mics still caused clipping and distortion.  In that situation I think there was even some distortion when the claps were only at about -1 or so.

I usually have 48v on line turned off. That allows me to easily turn off 48v (for cable swaps, etc) by flipping those switches.  I know there is a short cut to turn 48v on and off but I do it so seldom that I can never remember it..

Haven't used the BRO yet. Just had mic in with 48V on, levels were screaming hot, could'nt get to the mic bodies, show was 3 minutes in, went into the menu and turned limiter on. Most other selections had a line striked thru. I'm definitely going to select mic/line in next time. I think that solves the problem.

Usually I'm running the V3 in front, so I'm still not real comfortable with mics>722 yet and haven't been subjected to all the different recording situations we find ourselves in.

I don't understand this "I usually have 48v on line turned off. That allows me to easily turn off 48v (for cable swaps, etc) by flipping those switches.  I know there is a short cut to turn 48v on and off but I do it so seldom that I can never remember it.." could you explain please.


Thanks.

[oleg]

So line-in was the answer, thanks! Yep, the lights were on so it def. got compressed, meaning not a whole lot of dynamic range? Stack taping at close range sounds compressed anyway, right?

the line in is add about 40 db  attenuation what might be to much, i only use it to record gun shots fx or jet engines .
  better solution is to hold barrel pads which can drop 15 to 30 db,  comes very handy for high mic  levels .
do you sure you was running in low level setting  on the mic pre  and it still was to much ?

No, had it on normal. maybe that was adding to the problem.

i guess it was  your major problem - the low sensitivity setting  ( menu - mic input gain range) decrease it by 15 db

other wise use external pads  to bring more attenuation 

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I don't understand this "I usually have 48v on line turned off. That allows me to easily turn off 48v (for cable swaps, etc) by flipping those switches.  I know there is a short cut to turn 48v on and off but I do it so seldom that I can never remember it.." could you explain please.

You know those switches above the XLR inputs?  They select between line, mic and digital input modes.  From the menu you can configure the 48v to be on all the time or only to be on when those switches are in 'mic' mode.  It is very rare for my gear to need 48v in line mode. So by having the 48v disabled when in line mode, I can use those switches to quickly turn 48v on and off.

[MattD]

I don't understand this "I usually have 48v on line turned off. That allows me to easily turn off 48v (for cable swaps, etc) by flipping those switches.  I know there is a short cut to turn 48v on and off but I do it so seldom that I can never remember it.." could you explain please.

The shortcut is to hold the tone key (~) and press menu to toggle ch1 phantom and hold tone and press HDD to toggle ch2 phantom. This shortcut is only available in mic in mode.

[mmedley.]

I like the limiter. Some folk bad mouth it. But, used properly, it gives me a few more dB of musical signal, and allows me to safely hammer the audience into the musical ceiling. In acoustic ambient recording, the audience is always the signal limiting factor, so, the limiter function is a great advntage in some situations.

QFT. I am not a huge fan of the limiter, mostly becuase in my application it is useless, but for really quiet bluegrass shows, etc it really helps. Only one time I wish I would have used it, but the 722 handled the overloads VERY nicely without the limiter engaged.

[ts]

I don't understand this "I usually have 48v on line turned off. That allows me to easily turn off 48v (for cable swaps, etc) by flipping those switches.  I know there is a short cut to turn 48v on and off but I do it so seldom that I can never remember it.." could you explain please.

You know those switches above the XLR inputs?  They select between line, mic and digital input modes.  From the menu you can configure the 48v to be on all the time or only to be on when those switches are in 'mic' mode.  It is very rare for my gear to need 48v in line mode. So by having the 48v disabled when in line mode, I can use those switches to quickly turn 48v on and off.

OK, now I'm really confused. If I'm running mics in I turn the phantom on and set both switches to mic. If I'm running V3 analog in, I turn phantom off(in menu always)and set switches to line in, center position. Never had a problem till DMB the other night while running mics in with pahntom on and getting overs constantly till I hit the limiter. And now it's compressed, squashed and distorted sounding at times. Now I was thinking, based on some others observations(MattD)that leaving phantom on but switching both switches to line in would lower the mic input level? And doing this I can avoid having to use the limiter at loud rock shows. But now your saying to turn the phantom off and just run the mics line in? Sorry for being an idiot here, but some functions of the 722 are still foggy to me.

[F.O.Bean]

put your 0db peak light at -3db or so, i have mine there and running v3>xlr>722, i still clip at -1db or so, which is perfect IMO

[ts]

Sorry to confuse things.  With your mics and those SPLs you will need to run line in mode.  You can choose via the menu whether line in mode has 48v on or off. The default is off.

That's what I thought, line in with phantom on, right? Thanks. +T

[terrapinj]

Sorry to confuse things.  With your mics and those SPLs you will need to run line in mode.  You can choose via the menu whether line in mode has 48v on or off. The default is off.

That's what I thought, line in with phantom on, right? Thanks. +T

exactly - you can run phantom line or mic in, mic in will add more gain

[ts]

Sorry to confuse things.  With your mics and those SPLs you will need to run line in mode.  You can choose via the menu whether line in mode has 48v on or off. The default is off.

That's what I thought, line in with phantom on, right? Thanks. +T

exactly - you can run phantom line or mic in, mic in will add more gain

cool. thanks. +T

[RebelRebel]

I like the limiter. Some folk bad mouth it. But, used properly, it gives me a few more dB of musical signal, and allows me to safely hammer the audience into the musical ceiling. In acoustic ambient recording, the audience is always the signal limiting factor, so, the limiter function is a great advntage in some situations.

I liked it too, found it necessary for the work I did. PA Tapes arent dripping with dynamic range anyway, , so Id probably just run conservatively , having peaks around -10, leaving the limiter out. in 24 bit recording, clipping or being near it is  beyond unnecessary...

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=58384.msg906769#msg906769
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=58384.msg898317#msg898317

[John P]

 in 24 bit recording, clipping or being near it is  beyond unnecessary...

qft