Topic: 722/744/702 limitor

[jmerin]

does any one think usinng the limiator will effect the music

thanks

jon

[ghellquist]

Yep. The whole idea is to never hit the limiter. So aim for peaks in the yellow band. If for some reason an accident happens the limiter will save you from total disaster.

All limiters effect the music - that is the reason to savet he use of them to post-processing because you can try different settings and even different types of limiters to get exactly the sound you want.  With a 24 bit decent quality recorder (I would call the SD boxes well above decent) there is absolutely no need to even get close to clipping in the recording stage.

Gunnar

[branas]

let me just say that the first time out with my 744 I ran levels up to -6 or so (24b/88.2) (thinking that as long as I didn't hit 0 everything would be ok), also running the limiter, and I have faint diginoise all through the first set, when the limiters were engaged. Luckily, the 2nd set, I turned off the limiter and dialed down my V3 a notch, and it turned out ok. This past weekend I taped several shows (no limiter) and tried to peak at -12 or sometimes it would hit the first red light. Listening back to the show it turned out very well, and from now on I will be running it to -12ish. Take all this with a grain of salt as I'm still new to it, but, I'm glad I ran a second set of mic's for that first show because otherwise I would have ruined the first set. This unit should have low enough noise that if you have to boost levels in post it shouldn't be a problem as long as you're running to -12, I know I've learned my lesson about trying to squeeze every db possible.

My .02

[BayTaynt3d]

Are these units using analog or digital limiting?

[BC]

This past weekend I taped several shows (no limiter) and tried to peak at -12 or sometimes it would hit the first red light. Listening back to the show it turned out very well, and from now on I will be running it to -12ish.
My .02

Peaking at -12 db? That seems WAY too conservative. I say y'all turn off that limiter and aim to peak at -8 to -3 db (depending how comfortable you are with the dynamic range of your program material). When taping a PA system there is already plenty of limiting going on before the signal hits the speakers, no need to introduce even more. Of course, just IMHO.      

[Church-Audio]

does any one think usinng the limiator will effect the music

thanks

jon

As soon as you switch a limiter on your routing the signal thru the VCA that is part of the circuit unless its 100% digital then its software. This vca ( voltage controlled amp) does 100% effect the way the signal sounds even if its way below its threshold. So never use a limiter unless you have too. In the studio we use them all the time as an effect. But for recording events you want to be as linear as possible so I would say no to limiting. Limiters in recorders are for emergency situations where you do not have time to set proper levels. Not for situations where you do.


Chris Church

[it-goes-to-eleven]

My memory says it is an analog limiter but my memory could be wrong..

Anyone claiming digital artifacts from the limiter should post a sample. I'm skeptical.. I haven't run it in over a year.

Once in a while I record quiet material in situations where someone seated right next to my mics is clapping way too hard..  Those applause WILL clip, sometimes even with the limiter. 

[Church-Audio]

My memory says it is an analog limiter but my memory could be wrong..

Anyone claiming digital artifacts from the limiter should post a sample. I'm skeptical.. I haven't run it in over a year.

Once in a while I record quiet material in situations where someone seated right next to my mics is clapping way too hard..  Those applause WILL clip, sometimes even with the limiter. 

If its analog, then it ether uses a VCA or optical photo sensor to get its limiting/compression. In witch case it does and will color your sound the moment you turn it on, and put it in your signal path. I am not saying thats a bad thing in some cases a limiter can produce a really nice sound. But if your trying to capture the real dynamics of a recording I would sugest to anyone that you leave it off.

[ghellquist]

Peaking at -12 db? That seems WAY too conservative. I say y'all turn off that limiter and aim to peak at -8 to -3 db (depending how comfortable you are with the dynamic range of your program material). When taping a PA system there is already plenty of limiting going on before the signal hits the speakers, no need to introduce even more. Of course, just IMHO.      

Possibly good advice back in 16 bit days. Long gone though, the noise floor of the 722 is way, way down there just waiting to be used. On location nothing ever turns out the way we expect so a large margin for the unexpected is very good to have. Once home, a good post-processing software is used to raise the level.

Gunnar

[jhirte]

I'll probably set the limiter on for a show or two to give it a whirl. I learned the hard way that the 702 does not like to hit 0db. I had it hitting -4db, occasionally hitting 0db for the last Mudhoney show.... woah yeah.. clipping big time when it hit 0db. My V3 never had a prob hitting 0.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

My 722 clips clean with the 1.46 firmware.  No worries. Nothing less would be acceptable.

Not all firmwares clip the same.  Some of the firmwares clip nasty.  Having been burned, I would never change my firmware without extensive testing..

Had some bad experiences with the bass roll off and won't use it. It tends to make clipping extremely distorted.

[mmedley.]

2.03 firmware does not exhibit clipping with the occassional over.

[mmedley.]

2.03 firmware does not exhibit clipping with the occassional over.

I don't quite follow that. If it goes over, then it must clip.  Clipping is just the truncation of the waveform.

Though many A/Ds start to get distorted as they approach 0dBFS.

Right. That is what I was trying to say in fewer words. Anything over 0 does clip, but it clips gracefully and is mostly inaudible with the occassional over.