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Author Topic: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10  (Read 12438 times)

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Offline Pittylabelle

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2016, 03:40:00 PM »
More questions I'm afraid...  :)

Have you got all the settings on the A3 set to 'flat/off'?
Are you sure that you have no 'high pass/low roll-off' filters set on the recorder?
Have you checked that 'plug-in-power' is OFF on the recorder? (My suspicion is that this could well be the problem...)

Thank you very much for your engagement - much appreciated! ;-)

- All settings on th A3 are off: No -20 dB cut, No attenuation
- As said before, No "high pass/low roll-off' filters were set
- Plug-in-power is off

Still amazed how "good, clean, natural" my recordings sound if I just record via Line-In and not Mic-In.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 04:01:58 PM by Pittylabelle »
Current Gear:
Microphone: Soundman OKM Rock "Special Variant" (binaural)
Recorder: Olympus LS-12

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2016, 04:00:02 PM »
Odd.  Those are quite different. 

Though some discount the idea that using a recorder's internal pre-amp (going mic-in) has a different effect relative to line-in, and the manufacturers don't say what parts of the circuitry chain are bypassed going line-in (if any), there seems a clear difference in this instance. 

I'm sure it depends on the manufacturer and model of recorder. 

In this case I'd say the LS-12 has a very cheap internal pre-amp that dramatically colors the sound.  I'd also say I'd do whatever you need to in order to run line-in.  Honestly I thought the line-in seemed slightly thin, but the mic-in very muddy. 

Take for instance a Sony M-10 and I don't think you'd hear any difference running the same thing into either line-in or mic-in (if the output level of each result is similar). 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline rippleish20

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2016, 04:48:26 PM »
I also use a SP battery box -> M10.  Even after reading all these comments, Im still unclear about this - If I have auto gain off, microphone power off and use low sensitivity, are the line in and microphone in equivalent in terms of default gain? Or does the microphone input still add gain?
AKG C480B (ck61, ck63, ck8) /  Neumann KM100 (AK40, AK50) / AT853s  (cardiod, omni) / CA-14 (cardiod) / CA-11 (Omni) / Mixpre-10t / Mixpre-6 / Roland R-07 / Zoom F-3
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Offline Pittylabelle

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2016, 06:01:26 PM »
Odd.  Those are quite different. 

Though some discount the idea that using a recorder's internal pre-amp (going mic-in) has a different effect relative to line-in, and the manufacturers don't say what parts of the circuitry chain are bypassed going line-in (if any), there seems a clear difference in this instance. 

I'm sure it depends on the manufacturer and model of recorder. 

In this case I'd say the LS-12 has a very cheap internal pre-amp that dramatically colors the sound.  I'd also say I'd do whatever you need to in order to run line-in.  Honestly I thought the line-in seemed slightly thin, but the mic-in very muddy. 

Take for instance a Sony M-10 and I don't think you'd hear any difference running the same thing into either line-in or mic-in (if the output level of each result is similar).

Thank you for listening to my samples and for your findings. ;-)

I've made another upload to compare: This time, four inhouse field recording samples of the same band & same track, within a few recent dates in Europe (DE, NL & BE), received from my buddies. Yes, I'm aware of the different circumstances - different location, different live mixer, different PA different recording equipment and so on ... but ...

... I think this is still interesting, because I had made very, very similar experiences with this "muddy recording quality" on my old Tascam DR-05 recorder in the old days - via Mic-In.

No EQ was applied to the four recordings!

01 Banned From Utopia - 2016 10 14 Eeklo BE - 05 Cosmic Debris --> Zoom H2 (no external mic)
02 Banned From Utopia - 2016 10 20 Weert NL - 05 Cosmic Debris --> Zoom H2 (no external mic)
03 Banned From Utopia - 2016 10 24 Muenster DE - 05 Cosmic Debris --> OKM Rock --> A3 --> Line-In Olympus LS-12 (Pittylabelle's recording)
04 Banned From Utopia - 2016 10 26 Hamburg DE - 05 Cosmic Debris --> Zoom H2 (no external mic)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6uqci5m7hraX3N2THlWYXg2VnM?usp=sharing

Regardless, of weather your statement about my LS-12 Line-In seemed to be "slightly thin", I think my setup is still the best of the four - at last soundwise. :headphones:

What do you think?

Track sample: "Cosmic Debris - Banned From Utopia (Frank Zappa)"



« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 06:24:12 PM by Pittylabelle »
Current Gear:
Microphone: Soundman OKM Rock "Special Variant" (binaural)
Recorder: Olympus LS-12

Offline vanark

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2016, 07:18:52 PM »
I also use a SP battery box -> M10.  Even after reading all these comments, Im still unclear about this - If I have auto gain off, microphone power off and use low sensitivity, are the line in and microphone in equivalent in terms of default gain? Or does the microphone input still add gain?

Since I use a battery box, I don't need power - mic in power is always off. Mic in on the M10 definitely adds gain compared to line in - about 5 notches on the dial in my experience. One of the more techy folks can probably give you the precise dB's.
If you have a problem relating to the Live Music Archive (http://www.archive.org/details/etree) please send an e-mail to us admins at LMA(AT)archive(DOT)org or post in the LMA thread here and we'll get on it.

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Offline vanark

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2016, 08:04:20 PM »
Rather than subjectively assessing the difference, look at the spectrum analysis. This is from approximately the same portion of the sample files - about a 5 second segment.

But, as someone noted, mic-in is going to pass the signal through the recorders preamps and color the sound some. If the preamps are crappy, well, you will not get as pleasing a sound.

I never really noticed a large difference with my M10 - not like you've exhibited with your Olympus.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 08:07:18 PM by vanark »
If you have a problem relating to the Live Music Archive (http://www.archive.org/details/etree) please send an e-mail to us admins at LMA(AT)archive(DOT)org or post in the LMA thread here and we'll get on it.

Link to LMA Recordings

Link to Team Dirty South Recordings on the LMA

Mics: Microtech Gefell M21 (with Nbob actives) | Church Audio CA-11 (cards) (with CA UBB)
Pres: babynbox
Recorders: Tascam DR-60D | Tascam DR-40 | Sony PCM-A10 | Edirol R-4

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2016, 10:14:11 PM »

01 OKM-Rock to A3 to Line-In (Olympus LS-12).wav --> this file sounds "flat"
02 OKM-Rock to A3 to Mic-In (Olympus LS-12).wav --> this file sounds "bassy"

Aha, okay — my "extremely weird" comment was because I'd assumed you were using an M10 (after a cursory look at the title of this thread). Yes, some recorders are going to have a significant difference between the Line In and Mic In sound coloration. On the M10, though, they're pretty similar if you use the same battery box with each, except that the Mic In will have significantly more gain.

The old advice to go Line In whenever possible is still the best. But on the M10, at least, if I can't get enough gain that way, going Mic In is a reasonable alternative.

Does that help?

Offline Pittylabelle

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2016, 06:04:19 AM »

01 OKM-Rock to A3 to Line-In (Olympus LS-12).wav --> this file sounds "flat"
02 OKM-Rock to A3 to Mic-In (Olympus LS-12).wav --> this file sounds "bassy"

Aha, okay — my "extremely weird" comment was because I'd assumed you were using an M10 (after a cursory look at the title of this thread). Yes, some recorders are going to have a significant difference between the Line In and Mic In sound coloration. On the M10, though, they're pretty similar if you use the same battery box with each, except that the Mic In will have significantly more gain.

The old advice to go Line In whenever possible is still the best. But on the M10, at least, if I can't get enough gain that way, going Mic In is a reasonable alternative.

Does that help?


Yes of course, thanks. ;-)

Now I ask myself, should I buy a Sony M10 instead of the Olympus LS-12?

Or, is the Line-In of my LS-12 "worth it"  to make further live recordings?

Therefore, has anybody listened to my second live samples comparison?
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6uqci5m7hraX3N2THlWYXg2VnM?usp=sharing

To the mods:
Would it make sense to split this thread? A new one, from my first post, could be named:
"Unwanted sound coloration - Line-In versus Mic-In"
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 07:49:19 AM by Pittylabelle »
Current Gear:
Microphone: Soundman OKM Rock "Special Variant" (binaural)
Recorder: Olympus LS-12

Offline rippleish20

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2016, 10:25:08 AM »
I also use a SP battery box -> M10.  Even after reading all these comments, Im still unclear about this - If I have auto gain off, microphone power off and use low sensitivity, are the line in and microphone in equivalent in terms of default gain? Or does the microphone input still add gain?

Since I use a battery box, I don't need power - mic in power is always off. Mic in on the M10 definitely adds gain compared to line in - about 5 notches on the dial in my experience. One of the more techy folks can probably give you the precise dB's.

Thank you for the response. Some of the comments struck me as counter intuitive. And a little googling led me to an article which suggested low sensitivity basically turned off the gain, which also confused me.

It seems to me that using the microphone port, if one is only using a battery box, is still usually the best strategy as you get he preamp gain (unless the sound is really loud)
AKG C480B (ck61, ck63, ck8) /  Neumann KM100 (AK40, AK50) / AT853s  (cardiod, omni) / CA-14 (cardiod) / CA-11 (Omni) / Mixpre-10t / Mixpre-6 / Roland R-07 / Zoom F-3
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2016, 11:19:00 AM »

Thank you for listening to my samples and for your findings. ;-)

I've made another upload to compare: This time, four inhouse field recording samples of the same band & same track, within a few recent dates in Europe (DE, NL & BE), received from my buddies. Yes, I'm aware of the different circumstances - different location, different live mixer, different PA different recording equipment and so on ... but ...

... I think this is still interesting, because I had made very, very similar experiences with this "muddy recording quality" on my old Tascam DR-05 recorder in the old days - via Mic-In.

No EQ was applied to the four recordings!

01 Banned From Utopia - 2016 10 14 Eeklo BE - 05 Cosmic Debris --> Zoom H2 (no external mic)
02 Banned From Utopia - 2016 10 20 Weert NL - 05 Cosmic Debris --> Zoom H2 (no external mic)
03 Banned From Utopia - 2016 10 24 Muenster DE - 05 Cosmic Debris --> OKM Rock --> A3 --> Line-In Olympus LS-12 (Pittylabelle's recording)
04 Banned From Utopia - 2016 10 26 Hamburg DE - 05 Cosmic Debris --> Zoom H2 (no external mic)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6uqci5m7hraX3N2THlWYXg2VnM?usp=sharing

Regardless, of weather your statement about my LS-12 Line-In seemed to be "slightly thin", I think my setup is still the best of the four - at last soundwise. :headphones:

What do you think?


Well it is comparing apples and oranges but in general I think your mics are better suited to this material than the built-in ones on the H2 (assuming all other factors relatively equal). 

I think you like a brighter sound.  In general I do too.  When one doesn't have control over placement then equipment can sometimes get one closer to the desired result (though neutral equipment that can give you something suitable for post-processing may be a better approach, depending on your editing skills and patience).

I'm sure the circuitry inside an M-10 is objectively better than that inside the LS-12.  I think there is little difference (in terms of coloration) between mic-in and line-in on an M-10. 

That said if you know how to get results you like with what you have then maybe that's all you need.  There are degrees to our obsessions (and hearing and taste for relative sonic signatures). 

I would note that the M-10 is discontinued so if you think you want one look now... 
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 11:39:12 AM by bombdiggity »
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2016, 11:21:14 AM »
Rather than subjectively assessing the difference, look at the spectrum analysis. This is from approximately the same portion of the sample files - about a 5 second segment.

But, as someone noted, mic-in is going to pass the signal through the recorders preamps and color the sound some. If the preamps are crappy, well, you will not get as pleasing a sound.

I never really noticed a large difference with my M10 - not like you've exhibited with your Olympus.

^ Indeed.  This shows the difference you/we were hearing.  It is quite substantial and I'm not sure why they would choose to use pre-amps with that character. 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2016, 11:37:55 AM »
I also use a SP battery box -> M10.  Even after reading all these comments, Im still unclear about this - If I have auto gain off, microphone power off and use low sensitivity, are the line in and microphone in equivalent in terms of default gain? Or does the microphone input still add gain?

Since I use a battery box, I don't need power - mic in power is always off. Mic in on the M10 definitely adds gain compared to line in - about 5 notches on the dial in my experience. One of the more techy folks can probably give you the precise dB's.

Thank you for the response. Some of the comments struck me as counter intuitive. And a little googling led me to an article which suggested low sensitivity basically turned off the gain, which also confused me.

It seems to me that using the microphone port, if one is only using a battery box, is still usually the best strategy as you get he preamp gain (unless the sound is really loud)

It depends on what you record and the relative volume of the music and relative sensitivity of the mic.  If there's enough signal to go line-in I always went that way. 

At least with the M-10 I don't think there's much difference line-in or mic-in.  Use whichever you need to get adequate levels.  If the record level knob is anywhere between 1 and 9 and the levels register enough to be there (it doesn't even need to be -12 where the green light blinks) you're fine since you can (and should) amplify the result in post-processing. 

With the M-10 the mic sensitivity switch does make a substantial difference.  Running at mic-in low sensitivity may indeed be roughly the same amplification as line-in, so if something (battery box or external pre-amp) is powering the mics it seems you should go line-in rather than mic-in low sensitivity.  If you need high sensitivity just to get levels or need the plug-in power of the recorder to power the mics then you have to go mic-in. 

I did recently run something spur of the moment mic-in plug-in power with my SP CMC-25s (since my Tinybox preamp wasn't charged).  The result compared to the CMC-25 > Tinybox did have a slightly different character (most of which I think was from the pre-amp).  Soundwise it was close to what I'd expect but the dynamics were different.  The Tinybox seems to provide more dynamic range.  In theory a battery box or pre-amp also improves the signal to noise of the mics (and definitely helps raise the maximum SPL they can handle).  That signal to noise difference may be subtle enough you don't hear it if the music is even moderately loud.  The increased maximum SPL can be something you need if the music is really loud. 

I have two M-10s but am still not sure I can make an exact comp at the same time in a live setting (since different sets of CMC-25's are not matched to each other and I doubt any tiny mics are really precise).  I don't think I have the time or patience to set up a hi-fi playback sort of thing. 
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 11:43:14 AM by bombdiggity »
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline Pittylabelle

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2016, 12:35:37 PM »
Well it is comparing apples and oranges but in general I think your mics are better suited to this material than the built-in ones on the H2 (assuming all other factors relatively equal). 

I think you like a brighter sound.  In general I do too.  When one doesn't have control over placement then equipment can sometimes get one closer to the desired result (though neutral equipment that can give you something suitable for post-processing may be a better approach, depending on your editing skills and patience).

I'm sure the circuitry inside an M-10 is objectively better than that inside the LS-12.  I think there is little difference (in terms of coloration) between mic-in and line-in on an M-10. 

That said if you know how to get results you like with what you have then maybe that's all you need.  There are degrees to our obsessions (and hearing and taste for relative sonic signatures). 

I would note that the M-10 is discontinued so if you think you want one look now...

I've made some more tests today.

I think the "problem child" in the chain is the A3-Adaptor, not so much the circuits of the LS-12.

If I connect the OKM Rock mic directly to the mic in, I think I get the best results so far. Plug-In Power was of course On.

But I'm afraid of the behaviour of the mics during loud live concerts without the A3-Adaptor. According to the manufacture, the maximum sound pressure level of my OKM Rock mic is 131 dB.

Should I take the chance?

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6uqci5m7hraWERsUTZZaTlmTE0?usp=sharing

01 OKM-Rock to A3 to Mic-In - Sesitivitiy Low.wav
02 OKM-Rock to A3 to Line-In - Max Rec.-Level 30.wav
03 OKM-Rock to Mic-In - Plug-In-Power Sesitivitiy Low.wav (IMO best result)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 12:39:59 PM by Pittylabelle »
Current Gear:
Microphone: Soundman OKM Rock "Special Variant" (binaural)
Recorder: Olympus LS-12

Offline Mike Stranks

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2016, 12:45:40 PM »
Must admit that until I pitched-up here a few days ago the world of battery-boxes was totally unknown to me. Must admit I do raise a quizzical eyebrow.... But then things are often VERY different on opposite sides of the pond.... Not wrong, just different...  ;D

If it was me I'd be looking for a preamp with XLR ins (and mics to fit of course) and then use an appropriate lead to connect to the line-in of the recorder. There are several of these about as used by the DSLR gang.

... and on the question of line-in vs mic-in... the majority of amateur (and not so amateur) recorders just put a -20dB pad on the line in and then route it to the mic preamp! I haven't checked the circuit of the LS-12, but would be very surprised if it WASN'T like that...

The older I get the better I used to be

Offline aaronji

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Re: quetions again about line in and mic in for sony m10
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2016, 12:59:48 PM »
Must admit that until I pitched-up here a few days ago the world of battery-boxes was totally unknown to me. Must admit I do raise a quizzical eyebrow.... But then things are often VERY different on opposite sides of the pond.... Not wrong, just different...  ;D

If it was me I'd be looking for a preamp with XLR ins (and mics to fit of course) and then use an appropriate lead to connect to the line-in of the recorder. There are several of these about as used by the DSLR gang.

Tapers in the UK and Europe (and elsewhere) also use battery boxes.  For miniature mics, terminated in a 3.5 mm mini-plug and running on ~ 9 V plug-in power, a battery box/small recorder combination is very small and easy to manage...

As for the mic vs. line difference, I measured it on the M10 once (with the mic gain at low sensitivity).  I can't recall the exact number, but it was 20-something dB.

 

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