Topic: Taping Really close to the stacks?

[Charlies]

when you are further back from the speakers you will be hearing the full frequency range of the PA system... 

I think we're on the same page...What I was envisioning is the situation where there is a vertical stack stage left and a vertical stack stage right, and monitors on stage.  If you focus on one stack, with cards, you going to get the full range of what's coming out of that stack, albeit the range recorded may be more pronounced with respect to the frequency range being emitted by the box that is directly in front of your mic.  I hear what you are saying--farther back you theoretically will get a more balanced mix (presumably with the best mix being in the "sweet spot). (I thought you were saying that more frequency range was coming from somewhere other than the stacks.)

a typical concert pa is reproducing 40hz-15khz..... maybe a touch lower and a touch higher but that's a safe range. from there the speakers are split into 3 different ranges...

the subs reproduce 40hz-500hz or so
the mids reproduce 500hz-4khz
the hi's reproduce 4khz-15khz

edit to add: the subs are always in their own cabinet, generally the mids and the hi's share one cabinet


so when you mic a cabinet that only has a mid and a hi in it you are only going to be recording 500hz-15khz, meanwhile the pa is reproducing 40hz-15khz.... when you are out in the room you hear a blend off all 3 speaker types, when you close mic a cabinet you won't be getting anything but the frequency range of that speaker.

does that make sense?

edit to add, the above frequencies are just used for an example, in real life each club and each pa system will be a little different...

Yep, so in my examples, and using DPAs, I think you would really not lose much at all other than a higher concentration of low end?  You would not be losing any frequency range of the source.

[Colin Liston]

The PA isn't the greatest at the Freebird, where I'll be. 

The stacks are just about the sides of the stage about 21' apart and hanging from the balcony.  The whole front of the stage is made up of subs, either 5 or 6 I can't remember.
I figure I can point the mics a little inward toward the center of the stage.

colin

[Tim]

a typical concert pa is reproducing 40hz-15khz..... maybe a touch lower and a touch higher but that's a safe range. from there the speakers are split into 3 different ranges...

the subs reproduce 40hz-500hz or so
the mids reproduce 500hz-4khz
the hi's reproduce 4khz-15khz

edit to add: the subs are always in their own cabinet, generally the mids and the hi's share one cabinet


so when you mic a cabinet that only has a mid and a hi in it you are only going to be recording 500hz-15khz, meanwhile the pa is reproducing 40hz-15khz.... when you are out in the room you hear a blend off all 3 speaker types, when you close mic a cabinet you won't be getting anything but the frequency range of that speaker.

Yep, so in my examples, and using DPAs, I think you would really not lose much at all other than a higher concentration of low end? You would not be losing any frequency range of the source.

you are losing approximatley 1/3rd of the musical information. the kick drum will have no thump, merely the clicking of the beater on the drum head, you won't hear anything the bass player does except when he plays very high on the neck.

look again at the frequency ranges I posted for instruments and then look at how much of that information will not be audible.

we're not just talking about the very low frequencies that can cause our tapes to be boomy, we are talking about losing a significant amount of musical information.

I'm trying to think of a better way to illustrate to you what 400 and 500hz sounds like, they are not subsonic frequencies... they are crucial to the music. Do you have access to a guitar? Hit an open an "A" string (the 2nd string down) that note resonates at 440hz.

[Tim]

I'm looking around the net and trying to find some good articles or graphs that will illustrate my point, I'll post them as I find them but for starters here's one from PSB

http://www.psbspeakers.com/FrequenciesOfMusic.html

[Brian]

hmmmm, interesting thread going on here.

i wouldn't necessarily say that there will be no "thump" in the kick drum or good low end. remember low frequencies are omnidirectional and sound eminates spherically from it's source.  If his microphones are 3 feet from the stacks 10' above the subs I'd say he'll still be getting a decent low end, but nothing outstabnding that's for sure.

My problem with stack taping is that there is no image whatsoever.  just a dry mono mix being.pumped into two microhones.  Not to re-hash this debate though.  stack tapers like their tapes that's all that matters.  it doesn't matter if i don't like em

secondly, tim brings up great points about the kind of frequencies you'll be getting out of the stack.  if you ae back in the impact zone you'll get more ambience and "air" in the high end not to mention a better blend between the music and the room.  El Barto's recent Gov't Mule tape (2/20/05) is an excellent example of having the 3 things that I believe make great indoor  recordings. great image, up-front sound, excellent blend of room sound.  All this just because he was in the sweet spot.  with a stack tape all you get is an upfront sound, but with the loss of the other two i believe you lessened your chances of making what I and many others believe to be a good 2 channel recording.

you have to remember the room will always shape the sound of the PA.  if you have a great sounding room, stack taping would be futile unless your only other option was to set up TOO far away.  If you have a shitty sounding room then maybe a stack tape will sound better cleaner.  But shitty sounding rooms usually have shitty sounding PA's leaving you with a shitty sounding stack tape, DPA's or not.

[Tim]

thanks Brian, +T

[Brian]

no problem, backatcha in 12

[Colin Liston]

Well, I taped the drive by truckers with my mics hanging about 4' from the stacks, and guess what?  You guys were right.  There is definetly something missing from the recording.  The vocals are crystal clear but there is no sign of the low end.

I ran 2 rigs though. 

Gefell 210's > PSP-3 > Sbm-1 > D-8  from balcony FOB DFC
DPA 4023's> AD1000 > JB3   Mics Split 21' and hanging from balcony about 4' in front of each stack

The Gefell's have a more full sound for sure. 

Thanks for all the help.  Looks like I won't be wasting my time with that split set up again, takes to long to set up and way too long to pack 200' of cable when you are not exactly sober...

colin

[nickgregory]

given that it was a gefell vs DPA shootout, I am not surprised that the MGs won...they often do

[Colin Liston]

given that it was a gefell vs DPA shootout, I am not surprised that the MGs won...they often do

OUCH!

[Brian]

+T for trying it out anyway and hearing the results yourself!  I know it's hard to believe some of us around here but once in awhile we know what we are talking about

nick.  you could buy shares in the marshmelow industry with that fluff.

[nickgregory]

nick. you could buy shares in the marshmelow industry with that fluff.

It ain't fluff if its true

[Tim]

+T for trying it out anyway and hearing the results yourself!

no doubt, as long as you learned something!

I know it's hard to believe some of us around here but once in awhile we know what we are talking about

every once in a while!

[nickgregory]

just to close this off though...you can make fantastic sounding "stack tapes" but you seriously cant hump the stack...the farther back you get  the more natural sounding the tape can be....

[Brian]

just to close this off though...you can make fantastic sounding "stack tapes" but you seriously cant hump the stack...the farther back you get the more natural sounding the tape can be....