Topic: COMP: new v. burned-in cables

[Brian Skalinder]

Re-created the thread with proper poll options based on SparkE!'s feedback:

At least one of the A-set samples is done with the burned-in cables and one of the B-set samples is done with the burned in cables.

At least one of the A-set samples is done with the new cables and one of the B-set samples is done with the new cables.

Except for which cables are used, the signal path is the same in all cases.

The goal for the A-set samples is to identify which of the three samples was the only one recorded with one set of cables (which I call the odd set) leaving the other two as having been recorded by the other set of cables.  Extra credit if you can also identify which set of cable was used for the odd set.

The goal for the B-set samples is to use ABX comparison software to see if you can reliably identify which one is played to you.

The original post with file access info...


Per this discussion.  Samples are hosted  here:

ftp:  tapers.org
port:  21
dir:  /drive1/_gear_comparisons/cable_burn-in_comp
login:  ftp4all
pass:  ftp4all

From the info file I put together based on SparkE!'s posts and PMs:

INTENT
=========================

To allow tapers to determine whether or not they hear different sonic characteristics between a set of new cables and a set of burned-in cables.


SAMPLE CREATION PROCESS
=========================

From SparkE! at Taperssection.com:

"I used DVD Audiofile to make an ISO image of a DVD-A of all of the clips.  Then I used Nero to burn a DVD-A from the ISO image.  Then I played the DVD-A back, in its entirety, through a Samsung HD-841 DVD deck. From the line outpu of the HD-841, I re-recorded the clips with a UA-5 that I digimodded myself, but I did not use the digimod signal path.  I went USB into my computer where the recording was captured by Audacity in 24 bit/ 96 kHz.  I did this for each set of clips.  Then I used Audacity to trim each of the recordings so that they covered as close as possible to the same waveforms.  (The HD-841 will not play gapless without a picture file for the video display.  The gaps between clips varied in length, so clips also had to be trimmed between each of the original clips so that they would line up with each other.)  Then I used CDWave to track each trimmed recording into 24 bit, alternate format wav files.  Then I used flac frontend to prepare the tracked wavs in preparation for distribution.

The only thing that changes from one recording set to the next is whether new cables or old cables were used."

"Well, I've recorded two sets of samples from 24 bit files that were provided by Teddy and by Freelunch.  One set is for people who do not have a good soundcard, but have a way to burn and listen to DVD-A sources.  The other is for people who have a good soundcard and can use something like PCABX or WinABX to compare two sources and see if they can identify which is which when played randomly

The a-set samples are 3 recordings of each clip.  All 3 recordings are done with the same equipment in the signal path, except that 2 are done with one set of cables and 1 is done with the other set of cables (which I will call the odd recording).  One set of cables is brand new and the other set is well broken in.  The goal is to identify which 1 sample of the 3 is the odd recording.  Extra credit if you can identify which cable set was used on the odd recording.

The b-set samples are 2 recordings of each clip.  1 recording is done with one cable set and 1 recording is done with the other cable set.

Both the a-set samples and the b-set samples will be made available soon, probably by bittorrent.  There is a problem with the b-set samples because for some reason, they will not play in PCABX.  This may be due to the .wav format that they use.  When I tracked them out, I used CDWave and used the alternate 24 bit format so that the tracked files could be flac'd.  Maybe that's the problem.  Maybe they have to be re-stored in a different WAV format so that PCABX can use them.  I've seen references to PCABX being used to compare 24 bit files, so there has to be a way to do this, but I have not figured it out yet."

And an update / workaround re the PCABX problem:

"OK, I found a way around the issue that WinABX and PCABX do not play 24 bit files.  It turns out that foobar2000 has an integrated ABX comparator utility.  What you do is highlight both test tracks in your playlist, right click and choose Utils/ABX two tracks...

http://www.foobar2000.org/

foobar2000 also plays flac files directly, so it's a nice player for use on your PC.  It also means that you don't have to unflac to wav files in order to do an ABX comparison."

TRACKS
=========================

a1t01.flac
a1t02.flac
a1t03.flac
a1t04.flac
a1t05.flac
a2t01.flac
a2t02.flac
a2t03.flac
a2t04.flac
a2t05.flac
a3t01.flac
a3t02.flac
a3t03.flac
a3t04.flac
a3t05.flac
b1t01.flac
b1t02.flac
b1t03.flac
b1t04.flac
b1t05.flac
b2t01.flac
b2t02.flac
b2t03.flac
b2t04.flac
b2t05.flac


NOTES
=========================

Happy listening!  Thanks to SparkE! over on Taperssection.com for putting the comp together, and to Teddy and Freelunch at Taperssection.com for the original source recordings.

[SparkE!]

Wow... Over 60 views and only 1 guess.  Must be pretty hard to tell new cables from old cables, huh?

[Church-Audio]

I just have one thing to say

Wow... Over 60 views and only 1 guess.  Must be pretty hard to tell new cables from old cables, huh?

[willndmb]

Wow... Over 60 views and only 1 guess.  Must be pretty hard to tell new cables from old cables, huh?

i don't care enough to log in and DL flacs then convert and all that stuff--if it was mp3 i would do it
to busy right now for flacs though :/

[Geoff G]

I just have one thing to say

Wow... Over 60 views and only 1 guess.  Must be pretty hard to tell new cables from old cables, huh?

Real constructive.

[Church-Audio]

Well I just thought more people would be interested in finding out the truth about burn in, but I guess not. It’s a real shame SPARKE had to go to all this trouble for one person to take the test.

My smile was in relation to the fact that everyone wanted to take the challenge but no one has actually done it.

That’s too bad.

PS...... I do have a right to my opinion,
 

Chris Church

I just have one thing to say

Wow... Over 60 views and only 1 guess.  Must be pretty hard to tell new cables from old cables, huh?

Real constructive.

[RebelRebel]

I heard no difference either on my B+W 802s, Truth TA-P1s, nor on my living room playback system..not surprisingly..

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I'm probably not the only one who missed this thread when it was first posted... Not that I expect to hear a difference 

Thanks again to SparkE for the putting this together..  It is the middle of summer so I don't expect everyone to immediately find time to squirrel themselves away for the intensive and repetitive listening that this entails. The great thing about a comp like this is that it is timeless. Someone can listen in 3 years without a lot of fuss and gear the next time this subject comes up.. and it will.

I suggest everyone burn a copy and go to your local hifi emporium and ask about burn in.  Find someone who works there who is very emphatic about it.  Don't tell them about the disc until they're firmly in the 'I can tell!' camp and then give them a copy...  A lot of those guys do get bored during the day and they'd probably be pretty into this.

Next up, and no doubt more popular, would be a cable comp.  I still don't have a good 24/96 DAC that works with balanced cables and would have to go squeezebox3 or UA5 > v3 > test cable > 722. I don't think that source combo is worth the effort.. Must get Mytek..

[Church-Audio]

Thank you. I don't know you so I will refrain from calling you names. I guess that’s the way things go around here when someone does not like what someone has to say they resort to name calling. I am used to it from some of you Please feel free to call me any name you wish. I doubt you would ever do it to me face to face. It is very easy to be a tough guy on a computer. I will not stoop to your level.


Chris Church

PS...... I do have a right to my opinion,

Chris Church

Wow... Over 60 views and only 1 guess.  Must be pretty hard to tell new cables from old cables, huh?

Real constructive.

You sure do.  But after reading some of your "opinions", I think you're an ass.     

[Geoff G]

PM sent.

Sorry all...this shouldn't have been public.

Back to the "COMP: new v. burned-in"

[Church-Audio]

It was pretty stupid of me to comment about it as well. Thanks for the apology you are a gentleman

Chris Church

PM sent.

Sorry all...this shouldn't have been public.

Back to the "COMP: new v. burned-in"

[willndmb]

Well I just thought more people would be interested in finding out the truth about burn in, but I guess not. It’s a real shame SPARKE had to go to all this trouble for one person to take the test.

My smile was in relation to the fact that everyone wanted to take the challenge but no one has actually done it.

That’s too bad.

PS...... I do have a right to my opinion,
 

Chris Church

I just have one thing to say

Wow... Over 60 views and only 1 guess.  Must be pretty hard to tell new cables from old cables, huh?

Real constructive.

i did it with the mp3 in the original thread, i heard a difference
however i did not answer the question the way it was designed to be answered--like i said i did hear a difference though

[SparkE!]

i did it with the mp3 in the original thread, i heard a difference
however i did not answer the question the way it was designed to be answered--like i said i did hear a difference though

There were no mp3's in the original thread, but if you're talking about the three wav's in the original burn-in thread, of course you heard a difference.  Each of those was from a different source, so naturally they will sound different.  The thing that changed from one to the next was whether the old cable was on the left channel or on the right channel.

Or are you talking about some other thread?  Here's the one that I consider to be the original thread:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=61001.0;all

[willndmb]

ok so things at work slowed down today and i DLed set "B"
i can not tell the difference between them at all, not even a little bit
so i didn't vote for either because i have no clue

[SparkE!]

ok so things at work slowed down today and i DLed set "B"
i can not tell the difference between them at all, not even a little bit
so i didn't vote for either because i have no clue

Thanks for the feedback, and not just because your feedback is in agreement with my suspicions.

While we are on the topic of set B... That set was designed for use with A/B/X types of comparison software that will allow you to hear sample A, sample B or an unknown sample (could be A or B) and you can try to tell if it is A or B.  By using this software, you remove the bias from your listening experience because you don't know ahead of time which sample you are hearing when you choose to listen to X.  I've tried (in vain) to consistently identify which sample X is and I have had no luck in doing so.  I've spent quite a bit of time trying to familiarize myself with the clips so that I can identify any differences and so far, I can't tell the difference either.