Topic: SBE and CD Wave question

[bconnolly]

I hear a lot about Sector Boundary Errors.  SBE's they call them.  You know, the bits that get padded onto the end of files and make the recording pop improperly.

My question is: does CD Wave account for this when encoding to FLAC? Am I unknowingly compressing my shows replete with SBE's?  Someone help me out here.

[bconnolly]

Hm, after reading the "frustrated mac user" thread I'm beginning to think that SBE's are, in fact, the stuff of lore and legend.

SBE's are a myth I tell ya.  A myth.

[pfife]

my guess woudl be that the format in which it exports is irrelevant - its the precise location of the track cuts that makes the difference.  FWIW, I still have never heard an SBE artifact, but others report that they have, and I have no problem taking their word for it.

[bconnolly]

my guess woudl be that the format in which it exports is irrelevant - its the precise location of the track cuts that makes the difference.  FWIW, I still have never heard an SBE artifact, but others report that they have, and I have no problem taking their word for it.

So how are you supposed to pick the exact slice of the wav to split it on?  Do I need to become some kind of mutant?

[Brian Skalinder]

So how are you supposed to pick the exact slice of the wav to split it on?  Do I need to become some kind of mutant?

CD-Wave adjusts the exact slice of the WAV you select to prevent SBEs.  You don't need to do anything other than select your track splits.  And I believe CD-Wave handles the SBEs when saving to FLAC also.  I assume it still saves the file to a temp WAV file and then calls the FLAC program to encode.  No different than doing it manually, except, well...you don't have to do it manually.  If you really wanna know for sure, email the CD-Wave guy.  Or check yourself:  save to FLAC, then decode to WAV, and use shntool to check for SBEs.

[pfife]

my guess woudl be that the format in which it exports is irrelevant - its the precise location of the track cuts that makes the difference.  FWIW, I still have never heard an SBE artifact, but others report that they have, and I have no problem taking their word for it.

So how are you supposed to pick the exact slice of the wav to split it on?  Do I need to become some kind of mutant?

Once again, this is my belief, so take it fwiw - that's what CDWav does.  It makes sure that it cuts it at the right spot, and it's basically an invisible process to you.  However, being a mutant wouldn't hurt. 

[bconnolly]

So how are you supposed to pick the exact slice of the wav to split it on?  Do I need to become some kind of mutant?

CD-Wave adjusts the exact slice of the WAV you select to prevent SBEs.  You don't need to do anything other than select your track splits.  And I believe CD-Wave handles the SBEs when saving to FLAC also.  I assume it still saves the file to a temp WAV file and then calls the FLAC program to encode.  No different than doing it manually, except, well...you don't have to do it manually.  If you really wanna know for sure, email the CD-Wave guy.  Or check yourself:  save to FLAC, then decode to WAV, and use shntool to check for SBEs.

+T, thanks for the info.  Honestly, I've never heard an SBE in any recording because I'm just not that discerning.  I just don't want to call the fire and brimstone of the hoards of audiophiles on Dime.

[flipp]

Read the FAQ at CDWav. It explains about where it cuts and why, even does the math for you. All you'll ever likely need to know about why SBEs occur and how to prevent them.

[bconnolly]

Read the FAQ at CDWav. It explains about where it cuts and why, even does the math for you. All you'll ever likely need to know about why SBEs occur and how to prevent them.

Hm, I loaded up the FAQ page and CTRL+F'd for SBE and didn't find anything.  I shall look again.

EDIT: Here it is:

http://www.milosoftware.com/cdwave/faq.html#Technical

[fsulloway]

I've found that when I start with a 24 bit source and use cd wave I never have SBE's. However when I convert dats I seem to get the SBE's even though I used Cd wave. I don't understand why that is. I use Trader's Little Helper which is a simple step and it's kind of expected to list the shntool output anyway on digipanic where I do all of my seeding. However if use cd wave to track and cut a tiny slice from the beginning and end of the file then that seems to eliminate the SBE's when seeding Dats.

[pfife]

I might be wrong, but I believe SBE's are only an issue w/ 16bit files.

[Ed.]

i thought you always had to cut on the :01 in order not to get sbe's...if you cut at like :66 or something, you'd get an error.

*shrug*

[JasonSobel]

i thought you always had to cut on the :01 in order not to get sbe's...if you cut at like :66 or something, you'd get an error.

*shrug*

nope, not at all.

if you use CD Wave, it will ALWAYS cut on sector boundaries.  the reasoning behind snipping off a tiny piece at the very end, is that the entire file might not be an exact multiple of a sector size (one CD sector is 1/75th of a second).  So, if you don't cut the last file, your last track will have whatever "remainder" beyond a CD sector that the original file had.  If you snip that last little piece off, all your files will be cut on sector boundaries, and you'll just throw away the "remainder"

[Ed.]

i did not know that...i guess it doesn't matter too much tho.

[F.O.Bean]

just run your wavs thru flac frontend if youre on windoze and check the 'align on sector boundaries' box, done deal, since doing this i have yet to hear any artifacts YMMV tho

[RebelRebel]

I might be wrong, but I believe SBE's are only an issue w/ 16bit files.

you are right.

[F.O.Bean]

I might be wrong, but I believe SBE's are only an issue w/ 16bit files.

you are right.

and to add to this, not only 16 bit files, but ONLY redbook 16/44.1k files

[ellaguru]

just run your wavs thru flac frontend if youre on windoze and check the 'align on sector boundaries' box, done deal, since doing this i have yet to hear any artifacts YMMV tho

and ive had flac frontend say it corrected SBE's after i processed via CDWav.......

chris

[F.O.Bean]

just run your wavs thru flac frontend if youre on windoze and check the 'align on sector boundaries' box, done deal, since doing this i have yet to hear any artifacts YMMV tho

and ive had flac frontend say it corrected SBE's after i processed via CDWav.......

chris

same here, just because you use cdwave doesnt mean they arent there, if you place a marker to close to the beginning/end of the files, you'll get an SBE

[JasonSobel]

just run your wavs thru flac frontend if youre on windoze and check the 'align on sector boundaries' box, done deal, since doing this i have yet to hear any artifacts YMMV tho

and ive had flac frontend say it corrected SBE's after i processed via CDWav.......

chris

same here, just because you use cdwave doesnt mean they arent there, if you place a marker to close to the beginning/end of the files, you'll get an SBE

actually, that's not true.  CD Wave ALWAYS cuts files on sector boundaries.  the ONLY was to get a file with a sector boundary error when using CD Wave is if you don't cut off a little bit at the end.  because the original file is probably not an exact multiple of a CD sector size, the last track is not going to be an even multiple.  so you want to have a very short track at the end, that you'll just throw away.  it could be 10 seconds, it could be less than a second, it doesn't matter.

here is an example.  It's totally made up, because a CD Sector size is 1/75th of a second.
let's say a CD sector size is 5 seconds.  the original file you have is 77 seconds.
if you use CD Wave to cut it, you can only place a track marker at intervals of 5 seconds.  So let's say you place a marker at 10 seconds, 25 seconds, 35 seconds, 40 seconds, 45seconds, 60 seconds, and 70 seconds.  Your last track will be 7 seconds long, not an even multiple of the sector size.  so then you get a sector boundary error.  What you want to do is place a track marker at 75, and then throw away the last track.  the last good track is now 5, and an even multiple of a sector sice.

does that help at all?

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

SBE's occur when tracks aren't cut at a sector boundary.  CDWave will split a WAV file so that no SBEs are present, but it does not fix any SBEs.

If you have a SBE at the end of a WAV, it will not fix this.  You will either have to trim the last bit of the WAV off, or fix with SHNTOOLs.  I go to the end of the WAV file and REW by about 0.01 sec and trim (this is enough to fix the SBE).  I also trim about 0.01 sec from the beginning of the WAV.

Whenever I work with a WAV file, I do all my processing in Soundforge first and save the whole show as 1 big WAV file.  Next, I go into CDWave and if the WAV is longer than 80 min., I cut the WAV into 2 pieces and save as disc 1 and disc 2.  Then with CDWave, I trim the beginning and cut Disc 1 into tracks.  At this point DO NOT TRIM THE END OF THE WAV (you already did that when you cut the track in 2).  After saving, I load Disc 2 and trim the end.  This also gets tracked out and saved.

If the big WAV is less than 80 min. I trim the beginning and end, then track.

If you do not trim the beginning and (especially) the end of your Master WAV file, you WILL get SBEs.

Terry

PS SBEs may only be an issue with 16/44, but if you "up" to go DVD and have to merge all your WAVs into one big WAV, these SBEs will show up as silent spots or dropouts.

[F.O.Bean]

just run your wavs thru flac frontend if youre on windoze and check the 'align on sector boundaries' box, done deal, since doing this i have yet to hear any artifacts YMMV tho

and ive had flac frontend say it corrected SBE's after i processed via CDWav.......

chris

same here, just because you use cdwave doesnt mean they arent there, if you place a marker to close to the beginning/end of the files, you'll get an SBE

actually, that's not true.  CD Wave ALWAYS cuts files on sector boundaries.  the ONLY was to get a file with a sector boundary error when using CD Wave is if you don't cut off a little bit at the end.  because the original file is probably not an exact multiple of a CD sector size, the last track is not going to be an even multiple.  so you want to have a very short track at the end, that you'll just throw away.  it could be 10 seconds, it could be less than a second, it doesn't matter.

here is an example.  It's totally made up, because a CD Sector size is 1/75th of a second.
let's say a CD sector size is 5 seconds.  the original file you have is 77 seconds.
if you use CD Wave to cut it, you can only place a track marker at intervals of 5 seconds.  So let's say you place a marker at 10 seconds, 25 seconds, 35 seconds, 40 seconds, 45seconds, 60 seconds, and 70 seconds.  Your last track will be 7 seconds long, not an even multiple of the sector size.  so then you get a sector boundary error.  What you want to do is place a track marker at 75, and then throw away the last track.  the last good track is now 5, and an even multiple of a sector sice.

does that help at all?

good ponmyts, i was just lazy and wrote something quickly

actually tho, ive placed markers w/ as little as 1/3 of a second anywhere from up to 5 seconds before the wav ends, and still get the sbe, thats also after tossing thaqt VERY small wav at the end

its just good practice IMO to use frontend to take these away, i fix LOTS of SBE's of BT/Archived stuff, and fwiw, i have heard clicks/pops when theyre thjere and none when theyre gone, so i continue to use frontend

[rowjimmy]

Everybody has a different process i see but mine is this:

fades, dither, etc in wavelab then save one big .wav

track in cdwav dropping the end bit and a little snippet on the beginning (the beginning snip isn't needed but i do it as habit)

Save as flac

run traders little helper for ffp and shntool -len check.

run foobar2k for tags.

drink a beer.

[F.O.Bean]

ive never done tags, theyre stiull over my head

[macdaddy]

just run your wavs thru flac frontend if youre on windoze and check the 'align on sector boundaries' box, done deal, since doing this i have yet to hear any artifacts YMMV tho

and ive had flac frontend say it corrected SBE's after i processed via CDWav.......

chris

same here, just because you use cdwave doesnt mean they arent there, if you place a marker to close to the beginning/end of the files, you'll get an SBE

actually, that's not true.  CD Wave ALWAYS cuts files on sector boundaries.  the ONLY was to get a file with a sector boundary error when using CD Wave is if you don't cut off a little bit at the end.  because the original file is probably not an exact multiple of a CD sector size, the last track is not going to be an even multiple.  so you want to have a very short track at the end, that you'll just throw away.  it could be 10 seconds, it could be less than a second, it doesn't matter.

here is an example.  It's totally made up, because a CD Sector size is 1/75th of a second.
let's say a CD sector size is 5 seconds.  the original file you have is 77 seconds.
if you use CD Wave to cut it, you can only place a track marker at intervals of 5 seconds.  So let's say you place a marker at 10 seconds, 25 seconds, 35 seconds, 40 seconds, 45seconds, 60 seconds, and 70 seconds.  Your last track will be 7 seconds long, not an even multiple of the sector size.  so then you get a sector boundary error.  What you want to do is place a track marker at 75, and then throw away the last track.  the last good track is now 5, and an even multiple of a sector sice.

does that help at all?

exactamundo!

+t for typing that all out...

[Gordon]

ive never done tags, theyre stiull over my head

ditto

[macdaddy]

ive never done tags, theyre stiull over my head

ditto

easy to do in foobar.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

ive placed markers w/ as little as 1/3 of a second anywhere from up to 5 seconds before the wav ends, and still get the sbe, thats also after tossing thaqt VERY small wav at the end

Interesting, I've never had that happen.  However, I do know that if you do any processing AFTER you do your tracking (EQing, fades, etc.) that you can make new SBEs... 

I've seen sources marked source>cdwave>SF5.0 (fades)>FLAC that have SBEs because of the fades being put in afterwards. 

Anyways, I think its a good idea to run Traders Helper or SHNTOOLs to check for SBEs and fix them if you can.  Its just nice...

Terry

[JasonSobel]

ive placed markers w/ as little as 1/3 of a second anywhere from up to 5 seconds before the wav ends, and still get the sbe, thats also after tossing thaqt VERY small wav at the end

Interesting, I've never had that happen.  However, I do know that if you do any processing AFTER you do your tracking (EQing, fades, etc.) that you can make new SBEs... 

I've seen sources marked source>cdwave>SF5.0 (fades)>FLAC that have SBEs because of the fades being put in afterwards. 

Anyways, I think its a good idea to run Traders Helper or SHNTOOLs to check for SBEs and fix them if you can.  Its just nice...

Terry

while it's possible to introduce SBE if you edit the show after you track, it's not neccesarily true.  I always add fades after I track, and I never get SBEs (I check every show with SHNtool).  Fades don't change the length of the file.  As long as you don't change the length of the file, you won't get SBE's after the fact.

[F.O.Bean]

i run EVERY wav/set into cd wave first,. chop off the ends, and then save, THEN edit/track/flac and i still occassionally get SBE's FWIW

[scb]

Hm, after reading the "frustrated mac user" thread I'm beginning to think that SBE's are, in fact, the stuff of lore and legend.

SBE's are a myth I tell ya.  A myth.

riiiiiiiight

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

ive placed markers w/ as little as 1/3 of a second anywhere from up to 5 seconds before the wav ends, and still get the sbe, thats also after tossing thaqt VERY small wav at the end

Interesting, I've never had that happen.  However, I do know that if you do any processing AFTER you do your tracking (EQing, fades, etc.) that you can make new SBEs... 

I've seen sources marked source>cdwave>SF5.0 (fades)>FLAC that have SBEs because of the fades being put in afterwards. 

Anyways, I think its a good idea to run Traders Helper or SHNTOOLs to check for SBEs and fix them if you can.  Its just nice...

Terry

while it's possible to introduce SBE if you edit the show after you track, it's not neccesarily true.  I always add fades after I track, and I never get SBEs (I check every show with SHNtool).  Fades don't change the length of the file.  As long as you don't change the length of the file, you won't get SBE's after the fact.

Yeah, I think some of the newer music apps have fixed this problem.  I know that older version of Cool Edit and Soundforge had to be set-up to cut on SBEs... 

Bean, I don't know what to tell you.  You are doing everything correctly it seems.  If you are still getting SBEs, then I've got to think that something is wrong with your PC.

Terry

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

sorry messed up...  see next post

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

Hmm.  I could be wrong but I was told a long time ago to NEVER check that sector boundery box in frontend.  It does something bad to the files although I can't remember right now what that is.  Anyone?  Take it for what it's worth.

[dmonterisi]

Hmm.  I could be wrong but I was told a long time ago to NEVER check that sector boundery box in frontend.  It does something bad to the files although I can't remember right now what that is.  Anyone?  Take it for what it's worth.

i remember hearing that discussion as well, but can't remember what it did to the files.  however, my memory is that more recent versions of the frontend fixed the glitch and that having frontend fix the boundary errors is now ok. 

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

Hmm.  I could be wrong but I was told a long time ago to NEVER check that sector boundery box in frontend.  It does something bad to the files although I can't remember right now what that is.  Anyone?  Take it for what it's worth.

i remember hearing that discussion as well, but can't remember what it did to the files.  however, my memory is that more recent versions of the frontend fixed the glitch and that having frontend fix the boundary errors is now ok. 

Well thats cool.  I never did hear much about it after that.  It was years ago. 

I still swear by  CDWAVE>FLAC FRONTEND (SB box not checked)>SHNTOOL.  Works everytime.

[F.O.Bean]

damon is right, i directly asked mike wren about it and he said in the last couple of years, that glitch has been fixeed and the sbe box has been flawless

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

damon is right, i directly asked mike wren about it and he said in the last couple of years, that glitch has been fixeed and the sbe box has been flawless

Good to know.  +t for the info.

[F.O.Bean]

+T backatcha, go team akg

[dmonterisi]

I still swear by  CDWAVE>FLAC FRONTEND (SB box not checked)>SHNTOOL.  Works everytime.

you can skip the flac frontend step with the current versions of cdwav...you can choose to output directly as flac files and cdwav takes care of sbe's for you...then to double check, run shntool to confirm, but this is how i do it and have had zero problems with it.

[F.O.Bean]

I still swear by  CDWAVE>FLAC FRONTEND (SB box not checked)>SHNTOOL.  Works everytime.

you can skip the flac frontend step with the current versions of cdwav...you can choose to output directly as flac files and cdwav takes care of sbe's for you...then to double check, run shntool to confirm, but this is how i do it and have had zero problems with it.

i would do that, i just like seeing frontend say 'verify ok'

[Ed.]

for 24bit files if you make them flacs in cdwav, i don't think it compresses them at all.  last time i did it, the files were the same size as the original wav file.  had to redo them all in frontend.

[F.O.Bean]

i just feel safer using frontend, also, ive been using frontend since i started flac'ing stuff years ago

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

I still swear by  CDWAVE>FLAC FRONTEND (SB box not checked)>SHNTOOL.  Works everytime.

you can skip the flac frontend step with the current versions of cdwav...you can choose to output directly as flac files and cdwav takes care of sbe's for you...then to double check, run shntool to confirm, but this is how i do it and have had zero problems with it.

For some reason my compression's not as good going to flac through cdwav.  Don't know why.   

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

I still swear by  CDWAVE>FLAC FRONTEND (SB box not checked)>SHNTOOL.  Works everytime.

you can skip the flac frontend step with the current versions of cdwav...you can choose to output directly as flac files and cdwav takes care of sbe's for you...then to double check, run shntool to confirm, but this is how i do it and have had zero problems with it.

For some reason my compression's not as good going to flac through cdwav.  Don't know why.   

I bet CDWave uses a FLAC default of 5 or something, whereas most folks compress using 6-8 (I use .

Terry

[bconnolly]

I still swear by  CDWAVE>FLAC FRONTEND (SB box not checked)>SHNTOOL.  Works everytime.

you can skip the flac frontend step with the current versions of cdwav...you can choose to output directly as flac files and cdwav takes care of sbe's for you...then to double check, run shntool to confirm, but this is how i do it and have had zero problems with it.

For some reason my compression's not as good going to flac through cdwav.  Don't know why.   

I bet CDWave uses a FLAC default of 5 or something, whereas most folks compress using 6-8 (I use .

Terry

FWIW, CD Wave gives you a drop down box where you can pick which level of compression you want to use.  I use 5 myself.

[cbd]

ok, I thought this was one subject where I knew a little something, now I'm confused. Does cdwav automatically convert to flac??

I have been using SF to fades/dither/resample, then open cdwav to track, put in the dummy track at the end as otehrs mentioned & then save as wave files. I then open up front end, paste in the tracked wave files & encode that way.

am I doing something wrong or missing a step???

[RebelRebel]

nope,not automatic.when you click save..youll see a drop down menu on the right side of the screen..there you can choose flac as an output format.

[cbd]

thanks Teddy. I don't think I ever noticed that. I may still do it my way though since I usually burn an audio copy & listen thru before I convert to flac & seed anyway. Buut that is handy to know. Thanks.

[RebelRebel]

No problem man.