Topic: Shotgun mics

[wbrisette]

Recently I purchased two shotgun mics, neither for music work, but I thought for kicks and grins I would run both and see what I thought.

First up is the Neumann KMR 82i, this is a long shotgun. I played with it with just voices and it does exactly what it is suppose to. Picks up the speaker it is pointed to with little bleed from peripheral sounds. If you have a need for a long shotgun for vocals, this seems to be a great option. I bought it used and even used it was pretty hefty on the price tag.

Next, I picked up a Rode NTG-1. This is a short shotgun which could be camera mounted if needed. I picked this up new off eBay for just under $200. I chose this mic after asking a few sound mixers I know about some short guns. They all agreed this was a pretty good mic. I have to agree with them so far. It does tend to pick up a bit more of the peripheral sounds, but from what I understand, most short guns do.

So, since I tried both for music and this is a music board (primarily), I thought I would give my thoughts on both when used for music. While the Neumann certain has the reputation over Rode, The sound quality for music (not voice only) is better on the Rode. This is a very unnatural bump in the mids when using the Neumann. Actually I suspect it's not so much a bump as the bottom end is not a pronounced and the top end is boosted a bit. These are mics designed for on-location sound, and not music, so it makes sense. The Rode has a much more natural sound when doing music. I would not hesitate putting the NTG-1 on a camera and just using that mic. You're not going to get world class sound, but it is leagues ahead of the built-in mic. However, beware. The NTG-1 does require phantom power, if your camera can't supply that, you're better off with the NTG-2, which can run off AA batteries. The NTG-1 & NTG-2 are suppose to be the same mic, one simply can run off AA's or with phantom, the other requires phantom all the time.

I can't slag Neumann, it really wasn't designed for what I was doing, and there are certainly times you need a long shotgun, but you have to be ready with additional support (it's nearly 15-in long) when you run it, and I wouldn't run this on a camera by itself unless it was voice only work.

Overall, I think the Rode NTG-1 can be used for music, but still shotgun mics have limited use in the music side of things. If the goal is to narrow the audio field to avoid peripheral noises, you're probably going to be better served by hyper-cardiods. However, if you want a simply solution for mounting on a camera and shooting video and audio at the same time, the NTG-1 or NTG-2 is certainly worth a look.

Wayne

[John Willett]

The Neumann KM 82i is a long gun.

The bass rolls off below 100Hz to minimise the effects of wind and handling noise outdoors - the treble is raised between 2kHz and 20kHz, peaking at about +8dB at 7.5kHz - this is for clarity.

[wbrisette]

The bass rolls off below 100Hz to minimise the effects of wind and handling noise outdoors - the treble is raised between 2kHz and 20kHz, peaking at about +8dB at 7.5kHz - this is for clarity.

John-

I understand this, which is why I explained up front that what I was using it for really wasn't what it was designed for. Again, if you're doing voice only, this (KMR 82i) is a great mic. But it has limited, very limited, uses for what most people on this board are doing. But, I figured since I ran some tests, it wouldn't hurt to give my opinion of the two mics.

Wayne

[John Willett]

Yup - I understand this - I was just giving the figures.

I have now looked more closely at the reasoning...

The boost in the KM 82i between 2kHz and 15kHz is to compensate for HF transmission loss when recording distant sound sources.

There is a switch on the mic. to defeat this when it is being used closer.

[oleg]

the upper boost has 2 differnt positions and it come to compinsate  distance picking or zeppelin wind protection .
the neuman sound very good for what is it , it is not sonerrow pick up as 816 or even mkh-70 which i think is better sounding long shotgun .
the rody is nice for the price , really dont come close to neuman 81 or akg  or sanken cs-3 for the clarity , vert wide pick uppatern , quit muffi not enouth clarity in the mids .
i use it as camera mic only there it do does nice job , but there is almost mic will do the same .
it has almost indentical brother ntg-2 which could be also powered by battries for these who dont jhve 48 pantom but it degrde its audio acoustc preformers as the mic is electret mic and difernt voltage to the capsule change it characteristics .with 48 it preforms exactly as the ntg-1 .
the 81 is nice but has very low output what is a big deal with some preamps where you need push it to the limits pick up the dialog of somemambling actor , so for me it is only working on small ocasions , usially the sankens as they regect side as no other mics and if not i pull the 816 so my booman will know who is the boss .the 82 its there its nice its not really find it place in my kit .

[dointhatrag]

I use the KMR81 as a center piece to my CMXY4V.

Depending on my location I will run either 50/50 or 70/30  (more shotgun)

I love the Neumann shotgun!

[Javier Cinakowski]

I own the AT943 microlines.  (electrets...)   They have a 90degree pickup pattern.  These mics have a flatter response than the hypers and the same bass response as the cards.  I was blown away by how they reject audience, but still sound natural, and pick some ambient room info... 

These may not compare to Neuman, Rode, or Sennheiser, but they do sound really, really, good....

[kgreener]

I own the AT943 microlines.  (electrets...)   They have a 90degree pickup pattern.  These mics have a flatter response than the hypers and the same bass response as the cards.  I was blown away by how they reject audience, but still sound natural, and pick some ambient room info... 

These may not compare to Neuman, Rode, or Sennheiser, but they do sound really, really, good....

Interesting.  I've been interested in these but have never heard them.  Got any samples you can point us to? 

+T

EDIT: my bad, I was thinking of the new Unipoint/Uniline series from AT (U853RU)

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/553e9e08a6f933e0/index.html

[joekar]

I own the AT943 microlines.  (electrets...)   They have a 90degree pickup pattern.  These mics have a flatter response than the hypers and the same bass response as the cards.  I was blown away by how they reject audience, but still sound natural, and pick some ambient room info... 

These may not compare to Neuman, Rode, or Sennheiser, but they do sound really, really, good....

Interesting.  I've been interested in these but have never heard them.  Got any samples you can point us to? 

+T

Are you using the adapter to screw these elements onto the 943 bodies ?...Or do they only fit the 943's?   Thanks

Peace,
jk

[Javier Cinakowski]

There is a uniline that fits the 853 and the is a ES microline that fits the 943.  Here is a sample, but this room sounds like crap and there were no subs just a shitty 12" pa, so this does not give a good representation of the bass these can pull.  I taped MMW+Scofield with these and the bass is fantastic.  I will try to get a sampsle of that up soon...

http://www.treespine.com/rig/rig_files/gmob2006-06-21d2t02.mp3   (grinning mob)

[joekar]

Sounds pretty good....Thanks.......I'll have to pick up a pair of these .....Might as well collect them all.

T+
Peace,
jk

[easy jim]

For recording music off a PA system from a distance, I think the few best shotguns go in roughly this order (personal preference, of course).  They are all 'short' shotguns.

1. AKG 568s
2. AKG ck8s + 460 or 45x bodies
3. Neumann KMR81

[china_rider]

I should have my AKG CK69s any day now... I can't wait to try them.  Going to use them at a few festivals and see how I like them.  I've only been able to find a few sources that have run them.  Mostly Kimmok.  What I've heard sounds good though.  I got a great deal and should be easily able to sell them for more than I paid if I don't like the sound.

Anyone here have experience with them?  My friend I'm buying them from scanned the docs that came with them and they mentioned in long gun config range is as close as 24 feet.  I was buying them for festivals, but if they work well at 24' I can probably use them at at least one of our local indoor venues. 

[easy jim]

I should have my AKG CK69s any day now... I can't wait to try them.  Going to use them at a few festivals and see how I like them.  I've only been able to find a few sources that have run them.  Mostly Kimmok.  What I've heard sounds good though.  I got a great deal and should be easily able to sell them for more than I paid if I don't like the sound.

Anyone here have experience with them?  My friend I'm buying them from scanned the docs that came with them and they mentioned in long gun config range is as close as 24 feet.  I was buying them for festivals, but if they work well at 24' I can probably use them at at least one of our local indoor venues. 

I've patched out of some 460/ck69s a couple times in the mid-90s Phish days before a lot of the older generation GD tapers started dropping out of the scene.  I liked them and thought they sounded nice, however the low end tends to be very thin with a significant mid/high emphasis.  I'm guessing you'll end up liking them best for outdoor use in a 3-mic config. with one of your ADKs (card or omni) in the middle to help fill in the low end of the frequency range.  With long guns, you will also have to be very mindful of your aim (at the stacks) as well as the rear lobe which will pick up a lot from directly behind the mics.

[china_rider]

Thats exactly what I was planning on doing.  Either ADK Omni or maybe borrow another 480 body and put the omni on that.  Or maybe both and record MonoX4 with the R4 and see what I like best. :-}

[easy jim]

Thats exactly what I was planning on doing.  Either ADK Omni or maybe borrow another 480 body and put the omni on that.  Or maybe both and record MonoX4 with the R4 and see what I like best. :-}

   Can't wait to hear some results then when you get a chance to start playing with them.

I just received my 2nd c568eb after buying two separately on ebay.  I can't wait to give 'em a try, especially since I fell in love with the 568s back in the mid-90s when I started taping and had access to a pair owned by a friend/taper-mentor.

[oleg]

For recording music off a PA system from a distance, I think the few best shotguns go in roughly this order (personal preference, of course).  They are all 'short' shotguns.

1. AKG 568s
2. AKG ck8s + 460 or 45x bodies
3. Neumann KMR81

depends on the situation ,
the neumanare quit ok  they ara  wide pick up
, better sounding then akgs  at least for my ears

if you need more  side rejection there is nothing as sanken cs-3

if you like be more like schoeps n-there is a schoeps shotgun
for long shotguns there is nothing like mkh-70
of course this is my preference :-)

[Brian Skalinder]

I use the KMR81 as a center piece to my CMXY4V.

Is this for live music?  Have any samples?  Hmmmmm...shotgun(s) + 2-ch of a nice, open config on my R-4...   

Wayne - did you run multi-ch for the music recording?  Any feedback on how the guns sounded mixed with your other mics?

[spyder9]

Thats exactly what I was planning on doing.  Either ADK Omni or maybe borrow another 480 body and put the omni on that.  Or maybe both and record MonoX4 with the R4 and see what I like best. :-}

   Can't wait to hear some results then when you get a chance to start playing with them.

I just received my 2nd c568eb after buying two separately on ebay.  I can't wait to give 'em a try, especially since I fell in love with the 568s back in the mid-90s when I started taping and had access to a pair owned by a friend/taper-mentor.

I'll be back in the market for a set of 568's this year.  They are fantastic guns.  Low sensitivity, 11 mv, you can feed them to any Pre w/o attenuation.  I ran a pair a few years ago.  Loved them!    

[wbrisette]

Wayne - did you run multi-ch for the music recording?  Any feedback on how the guns sounded mixed with your other mics?

I did run them with other mics. When I mixed them, I mixed them way down and to be honest, I'm not sure they added a whole lot when mixed.  I just got done doing four days of run & gun shooting at SXSW and for the 90% of the shoots we were doing interviews. I used the Neumann and it worked great. However, we also did some live band shots for a few things and those sucked sound-wise. The problem is the gun sounds great for certain situations, but live music is not one of them.

That's why I don't think mixing them into the multi-channel recordings did much to the sound, because they did alter the sound of the recording to where I had to make them more transparent in the mix, so I turned them down.

Wayne

[wbrisette]

They just sound odd, and not as natural as cardioids or even hypers for that matter, at least to my ears.

Long guns, in particular sound this way. The Rode NTG-1 sounded much better. It had a certain cardiod quality to it. Not as smooth or natural sounding as a card, but certainly more so than the Neumann 82i does. But that's comparing long guns and short guns and as Oleg has pointed out the long guns like the Sanken cs-3 and Neumann 82i are really designed to try and isolate things. It is amazing how isolated things can be. Not being  a boom man, it took me a while to get the hang of doing it to figure out where to put the mic for the interviews, so I could roll the mic from side to side to get the interviewer in the mic. It is actually a much tougher job than most people would think.

Wayne

[DSatz]

> Long guns, in particular sound this way. [ ... ]
> But that's comparing long guns and short guns [ ... ]

The extra directivity of shotgun mikes occurs only at high-mid and high frequencies; most are approximately supercardioid until somewhere above 1 - 2 kHz. The interference tube creates a complex response pattern at these higher frequencies. For sound that is directly on axis, you'll get the manufacturer's printed frequency response curve, which may be just fine. But (say) 35 or 40 degrees off axis all bets are off, particularly with longer shotguns. The angle of sound incidence becomes quite critical. Shotguns still pick up sound from off-axis, and the upper midrange / high frequency character of that sound is often quite poor.

Thus you must always keep all significant sound sources strictly on axis. For dialog recording in the hands of an experienced boom operator, this can be manageable. But it really does take experience and constant babysitting--almost no one gets good results on their first few attempts. A good supercardioid is still preferable sonically, if you can get the microphone a little closer in.

Indoor music recording is a worst-case situation for shotgun microphones. The sound sources are typically wider than the main lobe of the microphone, so you get more of the "random-incidence" frequency response of the microphone rather than its (published) 0-degree response. With most shotguns, that's not pretty. It's much more "not pretty" for long shotguns than for short shotguns, and there are differences in quality among the different brands and types; not all shotguns of a given length are alike. But a good supercardioid will sound more natural than any of them, particularly if you're recording far from the sound source in a reverberant space.

Basically I'm saying, don't think of a shotgun microphone as "reaching farther"--it doesn't. "Reach" is a metaphor with limited usefulness and huge potential for giving the wrong impression in a case like this. Think instead about how (from what directions) the majority of the sound will arrive at the mike. The more off-axis sound you have, the more you need a microphone with good random incidence response. Look at the polar response diagrams and choose a microphone whose off-axis response is as similar as possible to its on-axis response at all frequencies.

--best regards

[JiB97]

Thats exactly what I was planning on doing.  Either ADK Omni or maybe borrow another 480 body and put the omni on that.  Or maybe both and record MonoX4 with the R4 and see what I like best. :-}

You can always use my 460 bodies if you'd like.  I'm thinking that 480's with the shotties & the 462s split -> Busman R4 would be quite sweet! 

We'll have to try that out at McDowell Mtn.

[china_rider]

Thats exactly what I was planning on doing.  Either ADK Omni or maybe borrow another 480 body and put the omni on that.  Or maybe both and record MonoX4 with the R4 and see what I like best. :-}

You can always use my 460 bodies if you'd like.  I'm thinking that 480's with the shotties & the 462s split -> Busman R4 would be quite sweet! 

We'll have to try that out at McDowell Mtn.

Sounds like a plan.... It's probably going to be the only time I get to use the guns.  Going back for surgery again the first week of may.  Depending on how insurance works out I am probably going to EBay them and see what I can get.  I'll probably auction off my TLs also.  I can always pick up another pair once everything gets paid off..

BTW... Have the guns sitting here.  They look pretty wicked mounted to the A61 swivels with the bodies vertical.  May have to put up a picture.

[JiB97]

Thats exactly what I was planning on doing.  Either ADK Omni or maybe borrow another 480 body and put the omni on that.  Or maybe both and record MonoX4 with the R4 and see what I like best. :-}

You can always use my 460 bodies if you'd like.  I'm thinking that 480's with the shotties & the 462s split -> Busman R4 would be quite sweet! 

We'll have to try that out at McDowell Mtn.

Sounds like a plan.... It's probably going to be the only time I get to use the guns.  Going back for surgery again the first week of may.  Depending on how insurance works out I am probably going to EBay them and see what I can get.  I'll probably auction off my TLs also.  I can always pick up another pair once everything gets paid off..

BTW... Have the guns sitting here.  They look pretty wicked mounted to the A61 swivels with the bodies vertical.  May have to put up a picture.

Nice!  Didn't know they could be mounted on the a61's. Pretty sweet!

More surgery?  I'm sorry to hear that, but hopefully everything will work out.

[china_rider]

Thats exactly what I was planning on doing.  Either ADK Omni or maybe borrow another 480 body and put the omni on that.  Or maybe both and record MonoX4 with the R4 and see what I like best. :-}

You can always use my 460 bodies if you'd like.  I'm thinking that 480's with the shotties & the 462s split -> Busman R4 would be quite sweet! 

We'll have to try that out at McDowell Mtn.

Sounds like a plan.... It's probably going to be the only time I get to use the guns.  Going back for surgery again the first week of may.  Depending on how insurance works out I am probably going to EBay them and see what I can get.  I'll probably auction off my TLs also.  I can always pick up another pair once everything gets paid off..

BTW... Have the guns sitting here.  They look pretty wicked mounted to the A61 swivels with the bodies vertical.  May have to put up a picture.

Nice!  Didn't know they could be mounted on the a61's. Pretty sweet!

More surgery?  I'm sorry to hear that, but hopefully everything will work out.

It was a bit awkward setting everything up... The 489s were so long and top heavy that my Sabra mounts were not holding them very straight.  I tried the a61s with the SSMs holding the body vertical and then the Sabra set up to hold the 69s.  Might be best to mount the guns with actual clamps instead of shockmounts.  Still trying to figure out the best way.

The Surgery is really minor and they are just cleaning out some things that they missed around XMas.  Totally out patient (but still expensive as hell.)  I think I'll even get a few weeks of short term disability from my insurance along with some good meds.  Keeping my fingers crossed.

Nice avatar by the way.  Where can I find one of those? ;-}

[JiB97]

Thats exactly what I was planning on doing.  Either ADK Omni or maybe borrow another 480 body and put the omni on that.  Or maybe both and record MonoX4 with the R4 and see what I like best. :-}

You can always use my 460 bodies if you'd like.  I'm thinking that 480's with the shotties & the 462s split -> Busman R4 would be quite sweet! 

We'll have to try that out at McDowell Mtn.

Sounds like a plan.... It's probably going to be the only time I get to use the guns.  Going back for surgery again the first week of may.  Depending on how insurance works out I am probably going to EBay them and see what I can get.  I'll probably auction off my TLs also.  I can always pick up another pair once everything gets paid off..

BTW... Have the guns sitting here.  They look pretty wicked mounted to the A61 swivels with the bodies vertical.  May have to put up a picture.

Nice!  Didn't know they could be mounted on the a61's. Pretty sweet!

More surgery?  I'm sorry to hear that, but hopefully everything will work out.

It was a bit awkward setting everything up... The 489s were so long and top heavy that my Sabra mounts were not holding them very straight.  I tried the a61s with the SSMs holding the body vertical and then the Sabra set up to hold the 69s.  Might be best to mount the guns with actual clamps instead of shockmounts.  Still trying to figure out the best way.

The Surgery is really minor and they are just cleaning out some things that they missed around XMas.  Totally out patient (but still expensive as hell.)  I think I'll even get a few weeks of short term disability from my insurance along with some good meds.  Keeping my fingers crossed.

Nice avatar by the way.  Where can I find one of those? ;-}

Well that is good news about the surgery!  +T

And by the way, gracias for the avi, snipped it right off the home page! 

[Roving Sign]

I like guns for a few situations...

1 - Odd PA setup - Last summer I went to an outdoor gig - nice venue, but the PA was too small for the venue and the speakers were too far apart. The bluegrass opener sounded ok - but I could tell, once you put an electric band up there, it was going to get mushy.

Getting too close meant I would be way out of the speakers dispersion pattern.

So - I sat a little deeper in the venue than I otherwise might have.

Very nice results - (these are my JVC shotgun caps on my TEAC ME-120 bodies - a little shorter than a nak cp-4)

http://www.mercersburg.com/joebonson2006-08-0504b.mp3 (warning: country music content!!)

2 - Blown PA speaker - I was at a gig once and the one of the PA stacks had a bad driver and was clicking a bit - I ran a bunch of different mics this day - but noticed that the offending sound was much less offensive with the shotguns - as if I had aimed it away from the speaker that was breaking up...

Guns do color the sound - and there seems to be this hit or miss element. Sometimes they can impart a very musical quality - sometimes...not.

(these are my guns)
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,60371.0.html

[Roving Sign]

One question...should one be concerned about the position of the vent relative to each other...

Guns are basically a long tube mounted over a capsule, with a slit/vent in the tube...it would seem we should be positioning the slit symetrical with our other mic...

(for clarity - Im not talking about the screens on the side of the mic - this slit is on the actual tube in the casing - you might have to use a flashlight to see it...

[dointhatrag]

I use the KMR81 as a center piece to my CMXY4V.

Is this for live music?  Have any samples?  Hmmmmm...shotgun(s) + 2-ch of a nice, open config on my R-4...   

 

here are a couple of torrents of live music with neumann shotgun and schoeps stereo 4v.

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=506093

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=505360

I love the neumann shotgun so much I am saving up for the second one so I can run neumann A/B and Schoeps XY.