Topic: Phantom Power with AT853's

[red]

I don't claim to be an expert by any stretch, and I realize each setup has its pro's and con's, and what works for one person might not work for another (due to budget constraints; level of comfort with different gear sizes; has other equipment and seeks interchangeability).  I hold illconditioned's opinion in very high regard, and here is what he has to say with the 4.7k mod option vs. the phantom option:

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,90977.msg1211265.html#msg1211265

[nameloc01]

I should have clarified..i wasnt getting at they sound better with phantom..i was getting at they are near impossible to overload using phantom. The 853s are notorious for clipping with high spls (when underpowered) so to me it makes sense to keep the odds of that happening as low as possible...ya'know.

[Javier Cinakowski]

yeah I feel ya, using phantom certainly won't hurt...

[spyder9]

Information on various microphones is best found at the manufacturer: http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/c0075f38c1add6ad/index.html

How does this post have anything to do with this thread?  There is nothing in manufacture documentation that deals with the modification of these microphones specifically regarding stealth concert recording.  If there is some documentation that deals with the differences in performance when terminating the mics differently, plese point that to me. 

Sometimes I wonder if people even read threads before they post...

The 853s are designed to use phantom power..so to get the most out of them its the only way to go.

These mics are actually designed to run on 3-wire , plug-in-power.  Phantom power is used only out of convienience.  All of the stock 853 gear has a phantom adapter built in that converts 48v->9v.  That being siad, 3-wire 9v is just as good and less bulky that using the 48v options.  I would be happy to argue that the 4.7k mod is just as good as well...

NO f 'in way.  You're talking out your arse.  P48 will increase dynamic range, lower noise, improve frequency response, yada yada yada...........  In a nut shell:  way better sounding.  If a chincy 3-wire 9v setup was better than or equal to P48, don't you think the whole world would have made the change?  Nooop!  P48 is king!!!!   

[Javier Cinakowski]

Information on various microphones is best found at the manufacturer: http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/c0075f38c1add6ad/index.html

How does this post have anything to do with this thread?  There is nothing in manufacture documentation that deals with the modification of these microphones specifically regarding stealth concert recording.  If there is some documentation that deals with the differences in performance when terminating the mics differently, plese point that to me. 

Sometimes I wonder if people even read threads before they post...

The 853s are designed to use phantom power..so to get the most out of them its the only way to go.

These mics are actually designed to run on 3-wire , plug-in-power.  Phantom power is used only out of convienience.  All of the stock 853 gear has a phantom adapter built in that converts 48v->9v.  That being siad, 3-wire 9v is just as good and less bulky that using the 48v options.  I would be happy to argue that the 4.7k mod is just as good as well...

NO f 'in way.  You're talking out your arse.  P48 will increase dynamic range, lower noise, improve frequency response, yada yada yada...........  In a nut shell:  way better sounding.  If a chincy 3-wire 9v setup was better than or equal to P48, don't you think the whole world would have made the change?  Nooop!  P48 is king!!!!   

Actually man, I think you are wrong.  AT853's are not a regualr condensor microphone.  They are electret condensor microphones. Electret mics only use a small voltage.  As long as you power them with 5v+, you will get all the dynamic range and frequnecy response thay can produce....

Being that the statistics for battery use VS phantom on the 853A differ an argument could be made that the phantom does increase performance.  I think this has more to do with the internal battery of the at853A having too low of a voltage. 

[nameloc01]

Not sure why this is even a debate? The guys at a.t. will tell you phantom power  is key..period. Not that other methods wont "work"...they just are not ideal. The mic mod and 3 wire bb are simply a much less expensive alternative. You will get better performance with phantom vs. the other couple options.period.

[illconditioned]

Not sure why this is even a debate? The guys at a.t. will tell you phantom power  is key..period. Not that other methods wont "work"...they just are not ideal. The mic mod and 3 wire bb are simply a much less expensive alternative. You will get better performance with phantom vs. the other couple options.period.

You are wrong.  These mics need between 3 and 9v, no more, no less.  All the phantom power adapter does is step the 48v down to 3-9v for the field effect transistor directly behind the mic capsule.  It also provides a transformer (for low impedance, balanced output), but for short runs we don't need that.

You should believe me as I've traced this circuit.  I've also measured the voltages at the mic element while it was driven with phantom power.

So, why does AT ship phantom adapters for their electret mics:
1. To provide the 9v without an extra battery.
2. To provide a standard console interface.
3. To provide noise and interference free driving of long mic runs (50 to 100' is not unusual).

  Richard

[Javier Cinakowski]

Not sure why this is even a debate? The guys at a.t. will tell you phantom power  is key..period. Not that other methods wont "work"...they just are not ideal. The mic mod and 3 wire bb are simply a much less expensive alternative. You will get better performance with phantom vs. the other couple options.period.

It is a debate because there is a good bit of missinformation here.  Speaking of A.T.,  they will not tell you phantom is key, "period."  I have spoke at length with them about the 4.7k mod and the 3 wire powering through a 9v battery box.  They are aware of these mods and understand that they work perfectly for our purposes.  You must understand that the AT853 series was not designed for our purposes.  If you ask a AT tech about phantom power for the 853's he might suggest phantom is important.  This is because they are assuming that you are using these mics for the purpose they were designed for. Installation.  In in installation setting the mics must be driven with a ballanced line, as there are often long cable runs.  I think Richard explained this well so i wont continue.  Bottom line is a ballanced, phantom powered source is just not nessesary to power any electret microphone in short distance applications. 

As far as your claim that the mod/3 wire solution is much cheaper solution, I don't see how you get that.  A 3-wire battery box is about the same cost as a pair of phantom adapters...
I had one hell of an expensive 2-wire AT setup not long ago (at853(4.7k)->CA9100->ModSBM-1->iRiver),  costs the same as my three wire setup now (ATu873r->Oade PMD660).

[nameloc01]

Not sure why this is even a debate? The guys at a.t. will tell you phantom power  is key..period. Not that other methods wont "work"...they just are not ideal. The mic mod and 3 wire bb are simply a much less expensive alternative. You will get better performance with phantom vs. the other couple options.period.

It is a debate because there is a good bit of missinformation here.  Speaking of A.T.,  they will not tell you phantom is key, "period."  I have spoke at length with them about the 4.7k mod and the 3 wire powering through a 9v battery box.  They are aware of these mods and understand that they work perfectly for our purposes.  You must understand that the AT853 series was not designed for our purposes.  If you ask a AT tech about phantom power for the 853's he might suggest phantom is important.  This is because they are assuming that you are using these mics for the purpose they were designed for. Installation.  In in installation setting the mics must be driven with a ballanced line, as there are often long cable runs.  I think Richard explained this well so i wont continue.  Bottom line is a ballanced, phantom powered source is just not nessesary to power any electret microphone in short distance applications. 

As far as your claim that the mod/3 wire solution is much cheaper solution, I don't see how you get that.  A 3-wire battery box is about the same cost as a pair of phantom adapters...
I had one hell of an expensive 2-wire AT setup not long ago (at853(4.7k)->CA9100->ModSBM-1->iRiver),  costs the same as my three wire setup now (ATu873r->Oade PMD660).

mine, for example with the ps-2 and the adaptors ran just under $300.00... am i wrong in stating that a 3 wire bb is cheaper than that? i was under the impression they could be built rather cheaply or even ordered ,from sp for example, for not much more than a standard bb...

[illconditioned]

Not sure why this is even a debate? The guys at a.t. will tell you phantom power  is key..period. Not that other methods wont "work"...they just are not ideal. The mic mod and 3 wire bb are simply a much less expensive alternative. You will get better performance with phantom vs. the other couple options.period.

It is a debate because there is a good bit of missinformation here.  Speaking of A.T.,  they will not tell you phantom is key, "period."  I have spoke at length with them about the 4.7k mod and the 3 wire powering through a 9v battery box.  They are aware of these mods and understand that they work perfectly for our purposes.  You must understand that the AT853 series was not designed for our purposes.  If you ask a AT tech about phantom power for the 853's he might suggest phantom is important.  This is because they are assuming that you are using these mics for the purpose they were designed for. Installation.  In in installation setting the mics must be driven with a ballanced line, as there are often long cable runs.  I think Richard explained this well so i wont continue.  Bottom line is a ballanced, phantom powered source is just not nessesary to power any electret microphone in short distance applications. 

As far as your claim that the mod/3 wire solution is much cheaper solution, I don't see how you get that.  A 3-wire battery box is about the same cost as a pair of phantom adapters...
I had one hell of an expensive 2-wire AT setup not long ago (at853(4.7k)->CA9100->ModSBM-1->iRiver),  costs the same as my three wire setup now (ATu873r->Oade PMD660).

The three wire solution is cheaper *in parts*.  It costs only about $20-30 to make a battery box, either two or three wire.  It costs even less to add a 4.7k mod and to use a regular two wire battery box.  Then there is the added advantage that you can plug directly into a regular recorder (minidisc, Edirol R09).  The problem, is that unless you're a hacker, you can't find a 3-wire battery box easily.  A few of us (Chris Church, Busman, and myself) made battery boxes for others, but we charged for labour as well, so that drives the cost up.

Yes, if you've got phantom power already, then by all means use the adapters.  That is probably the *simplest* solution, since you can just plug directly into the recorder without extra connections/worries of a battery box.

To each is own, it depends what you've already got and where you're going.

  Richard

[Javier Cinakowski]

yeah, you are right, the adapters + phantom power box is more expensive, even more reason not to use them!

 

The bottom line here:  AT853's are freaking great mics!

[Belexes]

I think I am going to do the 4.7K mod and live with that for the time being. I am glad I posted this...lots of useful information.

[boojum]

Attached is the AT853 spec sheet if anyone is interested in the info:

[Javier Cinakowski]

Attached is the AT853 spec sheet if anyone is interested in the info:

The information does speak for itself.

If you notice, the 853 reaches full specs if powered from 9v-52v.  The specs are diminished when powered by a 1.5v battery. 
If you use a 3-wire, 9v source you are effectively producing the same results as a 48v phantom through the phantom adapter.  The 9v-52v recomendation from AT is a great indication that these mics will perform fine at lower voltages.  48v is not nessesary. 
The powering of any electret microphone is well documented.  Many don't perform well when powered by 1.5-3v.  max SPL, dynamic range and noise floor all go up when powered by 5v.  It has been shown that more than 5v does nothing to improve sound.  I think Chris Church tested this...

[ArchivalAudio]

I have  some 853a's
that can be powered with a AA 1.5v
or Phantom
they do sound better with phantom
and also have a higher SPL  level

these have a XLR out of the power module
I used a PS-2 with them
and also with out
Phantom doe make them sound better a bit cleaner
never used it for stealth
 that way

there are a few versions of the 853's
mine have a mini xlr hard wire that''s 25' long to the power module(brains/electronics) of the mics...


I have the sub card caps as well as the supplied cardioid caps

always liked their sound  especially for stealthing