Topic: Using a V2 for M/S Recording

[stevetoney]

I'll be soon owning a new AK20 capsule for recording in M/S through a V2.

I know that the V2 has jumper settings that enable M/S mixing on the fly.  The question is, is there any advantage to doing that directly, other than being able to monitor the end result of what you're getting during the show?

Wouldn't it be better to route the mid and side to separate channels so that you can do the adjusting in post and therefore enable you to dial in the desired sound?

If you mix channels during the show, seems to me that you're locked in with whatever you decide during the show and can't do anything with it in post, no?

Elementary questions I know, but I'm just starting so...

Thanks!

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I'll be soon owning a new AK20 capsule for recording in M/S through a V2.

I know that the V2 has jumper settings that enable M/S mixing on the fly.  The question is, is there any advantage to doing that directly, other than being able to monitor the end result of what you're getting during the show?

Wouldn't it be better to route the mid and side to separate channels so that you can do the adjusting in post and therefore enable you to dial in the desired sound?

If you mix channels during the show, seems to me that you're locked in with whatever you decide during the show and can't do anything with it in post, no?

Elementary questions I know, but I'm just starting so...

Thanks!

Your generally on the right track, the advantage of doing it onsight is so you can monitor it there, that and you don't have to do anything at home later. The disadvantage is its really easy to not get it right since you will generally have trouble getting enough isolation to do the monitoring and proper adjustments.

I personally record the raw signals and do mine in post. As far as being locked in though, you could go from decode to encode (raw) channels using a similar process and then make re-adjustments, but if your going to do that, why not just keep them separate to start with.

[drewloo]

ah, Page beat me to it but I was going to say basically the same thing, so what he ^ said. 

If I understand correctly you're not completely 'locked in' if you decode on the fly, because there are plug-ins that will let you decode back to mid/side, adjust your mid/side ratios, and encode back to stereo.  

I've been experimenting lately running x/y and then using the msed inline plug-in to adjust the mid/side ratio after the fact on the pc.  The nice thing about it being inline is that it lets you decode to mid/side, adjust as necessary, and then encode it back to stereo in one step.

[stevetoney]

Your generally on the right track, the advantage of doing it onsight is so you can monitor it there, that and you don't have to do anything at home later. The disadvantage is its really easy to not get it right since you will generally have trouble getting enough isolation to do the monitoring and proper adjustments.

I personally record the raw signals and do mine in post. As far as being locked in though, you could go from decode to encode (raw) channels using a similar process and then make re-adjustments, but if your going to do that, why not just keep them separate to start with.

Thanks.  Makes sense.  I guess one other disadvantage I thought of is not being able to listen to a semi-finished stereo recording on the way home, although you can surely listen to the mono channels.  Frankly, none of these seem like great reasons to me to swap the jumper on the V2 to put it into m/s mode.

Thanks guys.

[NOLAfishwater]

Congratulations on your new cap. I would also do it all in post. Makes it easy to custom tune it however you want it. What editing program are you using?

great VST plugin that is compatible with Wavelab or inuendo
http://www.kellyindustries.com/stereo_tools.html

[drewloo]

Used to use the Kelly plug-in but I like the Voxengo msed plug-in much better.  YMMV.

http://www.voxengo.com/product/msed/

[NOLAfishwater]

I have seen that but never used it. The stereo tools works great for me b/c I do on stage and lip of stage recordings and usually have to use the pan function of the plugin. To each their own.

[stevetoney]

Jeepers.  

I thought that I'd use Audition 1.0, but honestly haven't done any M/S processing to verify that it can be used.  

When I was contemplating this, I figured that I'd load both channels into the edit view of Audition.  Then I'd phase reverse the mid channel, thus creating the three basic tracks.  Then I'd go to the track mixing view load each track onto a separate track...three total...one for the mid, two for the side.  For the two side track, the positive would be panned all the way to the left and the negative would be panned all the way to the right with the mid center panned.  From there it's just a matter of mixing the relative volumes between the mid and the two side tracks so that the sound is best sounding to my ears.

Is this correct?

Thanks gang.

[Brian Skalinder]

In Audition 1.5, there's a built-in M/S decode option -- no need to manually copy tracks, invert phase, etc.  I'm pretty sure it's in Audition 1.0, as I vaguely recall its presence in CEP.  To access:  Main menu Effects | Amplify | Channel Mixer, select Mid-Side to LR preset.  The New Left/Right Channel's "L" sliders control the level of mid in the mix.  The New Left/Right Channel's "R" sliders control the level of side in the mix (positive for L, negative for R).

Alternatively, the Voxengo MSED plugin (and probably the Kelly plugin, too) will work in Audition.

[stevetoney]

In Audition 1.5, there's a built-in M/S decode option -- no need to manually copy tracks, invert phase, etc.  I'm pretty sure it's in Audition 1.0, as I vaguely recall its presence in CEP.  To access:  Main menu Effects | Amplify | Channel Mixer, select Mid-Side to LR preset.  The New Left/Right Channel's "L" sliders control the level of mid in the mix.  The New Left/Right Channel's "R" sliders control the level of side in the mix (positive for L, negative for R).

Alternatively, the Voxengo MSED plugin (and probably the Kelly plugin, too) will work in Audition.

PERFECT...yes, it's right there in Audition 1.0 also.  Thanks Brian.  Dang, that makes it simple!

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PERFECT...yes, it's right there in Audition 1.0 also.  Thanks Brian.  Dang, that makes it simple!

If you ever get in a pinch and have to do it by hand, invert your S track, not the M. The theory is that when you sum them together (lets say for radio or something else), then you want to be left with the M and not just the side. If you invert that M, then when summed, all you have left is that S.

[barrettphisher]

You know I had my V3 M/S modded so I didn't have to open it up in the field.  I must say the times I have run mid-side with the V3 it was very easy and came out really well.  Mastering after the fact is great but you can save yourself the time up front, give it a shot.  Give it a try.  My two 0.02
Barrett

[stevetoney]

You know I had my V3 M/S modded so I didn't have to open it up in the field.  I must say the times I have run mid-side with the V3 it was very easy and came out really well.  Mastering after the fact is great but you can save yourself the time up front, give it a shot.  Give it a try.  My two 0.02
Barrett

Someone else mentioned this mod...I guess they put a switch out on the outside of the box for making it easier to swap modes.  Do you happen to remember how much the mod costs?  It would indeed be kinda nice to just make a simple selection depending on your mood.

[barrettphisher]

You know I had my V3 M/S modded so I didn't have to open it up in the field.  I must say the times I have run mid-side with the V3 it was very easy and came out really well.  Mastering after the fact is great but you can save yourself the time up front, give it a shot.  Give it a try.  My two 0.02
Barrett

Someone else mentioned this mod...I guess they put a switch out on the outside of the box for making it easier to swap modes.  Do you happen to remember how much the mod costs?  It would indeed be kinda nice to just make a simple selection depending on your mood.

It cost me $200 to get the mod done.  It is a basic switch on the front that goes from stereo mode to mid-side.  I like it and would do it again if needed. Talk to the Grace guys directly if you are interested. 
Barrett

[stevetoney]

You know I had my V3 M/S modded so I didn't have to open it up in the field.  I must say the times I have run mid-side with the V3 it was very easy and came out really well.  Mastering after the fact is great but you can save yourself the time up front, give it a shot.  Give it a try.  My two 0.02
Barrett

Someone else mentioned this mod...I guess they put a switch out on the outside of the box for making it easier to swap modes.  Do you happen to remember how much the mod costs?  It would indeed be kinda nice to just make a simple selection depending on your mood.

It cost me $200 to get the mod done.  It is a basic switch on the front that goes from stereo mode to mid-side.  I like it and would do it again if needed. Talk to the Grace guys directly if you are interested. 
Barrett

Gulp.  No thanks.  I'm sure the mod is nice to have, but I'll just open it up and set the jumper if the need arises.