Topic: Mme soft limit and gain questions..

[Nick's Picks]

Hey all...

Mme novice here.
My first outing with it was sort of a dissapointment. 

I was running carls c34, which is a real bear to run.  It needs a ton of gain.  I used to run it all the time w/an ad1k and that was never an issue.  Plenty of juice for it.

I found that I had to crank up the gain knobs 99% of their available play to get the levels where i was kicking -2db. 
I was also running the SL setting.  No curve...as several Mme owners recomended.

My resulting recording sounds bloated, distroted and compressed.  Some of it is real nice, but most of it is sort of boomy ass.

any advice here?
Luckily, I'll be running my 140s from here out.

[johnw]

I'd change the internal jumpers to high gain instead of low so you don't have to crank it. The diagram with jumper location is in the manual. I'd also turn off the SL as this may be causing the compressed sound.

I think that the best way to run the MME is to have the gain so that the lowest greens are always on with flickers of the second set of green LEDs. This should leave plenty of room for any sudden increase in decibel level. I'd read that the red LEDs are pretty forgiving, but I haven't found that to be true. Besides at 24 bit, you are using more with less gain than I am at 16 bit. I try to maximize bits and don't mind the effect of the SL kicking in (would rather have that than clipping). With SL, I can focus on the band and not levels. When I eventually go to 24 bit, I'll dial back the gain and turn off SL.

BTW - in the picture you posted at the ABB/moe show, the SL doesn't look like it is turned on (all the way to the left). And you definitely have the gain way up! 

[danmorgan]

Nick,

Your problems were surely a result of running the soft limiter.  The soft limit will not allow any output above -2db.  With the gain settings where they were at (i.e. almost maximum)  you were likely set to run beyond 0db.  The soft limit was compressing any of the signals that would've clipped to keep evertthing below -2db.

My resulting recording sounds bloated, distroted and compressed. Some of it is real nice, but most of it is sort of boomy ass.

Specifically with the 140's, you are best to start with no soft limit or curve settings, gain around 12:00-1:00 positions and work from there.

Edited to add:  You will not want to use the high gain internal jumper settings, especially using the 140's

[BC]

not a apogee user personally but I say stay away from the limiter, particularly for the case of recording a PA system, the sound is already compressed enough already!

Dynamics are a big part of what make the music, for my master recording I always want to have the music occupying the max dynamic range possible.

Of course just IMHO...

Oh, and like johnw said, I think you will have much better results by switching the internal jumpers to high gain, should solve your problem of maxing out the knobs.

[Brian]

yep, what dan said. you were definitely over-pushing the soft limiter. typically, limiters will allow you to crank the gain all you want and never go over certain point.  The problem is your recording results in an overly compressed, "breathy", and quite unpleasant sound. If you didn't have it on you would have surely clipped well before getting anywhere near full gain on the mini-me.

i did the same thing when i ran the 722 limiter the first time and pushed it too hard testing its limits. soft limiters, IMHO, are meant to be used sparingly and in supreme dynamic situations where a huge transient might send you over.  in mastering it's merely used to prevent overs and not really to compress.  I'm not sure what you were recording, but if it was a rock concert, chances are it wasn't very dynamic.  Thus pushing a soft limiter the way you did gave your undesired results.

[Nick's Picks]

sounds good all.
so...should I set the jumpers?  I didnt see mention of this in my manual.  i'll look again.
two people said yes, one says no.  Looking in the manual...and I see no jumper settings.  Just cal pots for adjusting the ration for the compresser.

i'll be running 140s from here out.  I'd like to use as little gain as possible w/the MMe. 
+T everyone.  thanks

[Nick's Picks]

BTW - in the picture you posted at the ABB/moe show, the SL doesn't look like it is turned on (all the way to the left). And you definitely have the gain way up!

that was for the moe set...which I did not use the SL...and was pushing things.
I've always liked a hot apogee sound.

fuck SL then!
I'll chaulk this up as piolet error...as usual.

[johnw]

so...should I set the jumpers?  I didnt see mention of this in my manual.  i'll look again.
two people said yes, one says no.  Looking in the manual...and I see no jumper settings.  Just cal pots for adjusting the ration for the compresser.

i'll be running 140s from here out.  I'd like to use as little gain as possible w/the MMe. 
+T everyone.  thanks

Look at the bottom of page 23 and top of page 24 on the pdf file in the archive. I'm not sure what the sensitivity of your Neumanns is, but it's probably higher than my mod 460s. I set the jumpers to low gain and typically have the gain knobs between 12:00 and 3:00. I'd guess you'll need to be between 10:00 and 1:00, so I don't think I'd change things unless you run the AKG again.

[Nick's Picks]

cool....thanks John.

[marc0789]

Hey all...

Mme novice here.
My first outing with it was sort of a dissapointment. 

I was running carls c34, which is a real bear to run.  It needs a ton of gain.  I used to run it all the time w/an ad1k and that was never an issue.  Plenty of juice for it.

I found that I had to crank up the gain knobs 99% of their available play to get the levels where i was kicking -2db. 
I was also running the SL setting.  No curve...as several Mme owners recomended.

My resulting recording sounds bloated, distroted and compressed.  Some of it is real nice, but most of it is sort of boomy ass.

any advice here?
Luckily, I'll be running my 140s from here out.

the bloated is a mme characteristic when run mic in, imo. The other symptoms are probably related to running the SL, *if* you had the internal gain set to low. The SL kicks in around -4 and not -2, so you'll sound a bit compressed and distorted if you exceed -4 during the music. SL really only useful for acoustic music, during loud periods of applause.

But the first thing to check is the internal jumpers, obviously.

[marc0789]

I'd change the internal jumpers to high gain instead of low so you don't have to crank it. The diagram with jumper location is in the manual. I'd also turn off the SL as this may be causing the compressed sound.

I think that the best way to run the MME is to have the gain so that the lowest greens are always on with flickers of the second set of green LEDs. This should leave plenty of room for any sudden increase in decibel level. I'd read that the red LEDs are pretty forgiving, but I haven't found that to be true. Besides at 24 bit, you are using more with less gain than I am at 16 bit. I try to maximize bits and don't mind the effect of the SL kicking in (would rather have that than clipping). With SL, I can focus on the band and not levels. When I eventually go to 24 bit, I'll dial back the gain and turn off SL.

BTW - in the picture you posted at the ABB/moe show, the SL doesn't look like it is turned on (all the way to the left). And you definitely have the gain way up! 

sorry, but I disagree with just about everything above. you do *not* want to run the high gain setting. And the mme is extremely tough to clip. I shoot for lots of greens, lots of yellows and an occasional red. Never a touch of distortion. Running the SL when the music will exceed -4 is a bad idea. You will compress and distort the music.

[Nick's Picks]

Looks like it'll be trial and error for a while then.

the bloated Mme sound is certainly  a characteristic in 16bit mode..but not from what i've heard out of it in 24bits.

I'll have to track out my Moe set and see if it suffers the same fate as the ABB ass  set.

[johnw]

I'd change the internal jumpers to high gain instead of low so you don't have to crank it. The diagram with jumper location is in the manual. I'd also turn off the SL as this may be causing the compressed sound.

I think that the best way to run the MME is to have the gain so that the lowest greens are always on with flickers of the second set of green LEDs. This should leave plenty of room for any sudden increase in decibel level. I'd read that the red LEDs are pretty forgiving, but I haven't found that to be true. Besides at 24 bit, you are using more with less gain than I am at 16 bit. I try to maximize bits and don't mind the effect of the SL kicking in (would rather have that than clipping). With SL, I can focus on the band and not levels. When I eventually go to 24 bit, I'll dial back the gain and turn off SL.

BTW - in the picture you posted at the ABB/moe show, the SL doesn't look like it is turned on (all the way to the left). And you definitely have the gain way up! 

sorry, but I disagree with just about everything above. you do *not* want to run the high gain setting. And the mme is extremely tough to clip. I shoot for lots of greens, lots of yellows and an occasional red. Never a touch of distortion. Running the SL when the music will exceed -4 is a bad idea. You will compress and distort the music.

How much gain does the high gain jumper setting add? I never found that out. I know it states 12-65 dB gain, but I assume that is for the factory default (high gain setting). Do the two settings overlap - like 12-40 and 30-65?

My first show with the MME was kaki king and I had the levels set for the first two (relatively quiet) acoustic guitar songs so that I had constant greens with flickering yellows. Then she started playing very loud and aggresively and I was pegging reds with horrible clipping on playback. Since then, I've run it with SL on. I guess I'll try it again without the SL. Thanks  +T 

[Nick's Picks]

moe SL free moe set sounds good.  and that was pegging yellows w/an occasional red.  very rare red, i should state.
a learning curve w/this thing!

[darkfunk]

i found setting the levels on mme to be tricky, especially with stage recording of acoustic jazz.  it might be barely registering on the bottom green lights during soundcheck, then be clipping horribly in the performance.  I often have to leave during the actual recording so i can't set levels on the fly.  when i ran w/ no SL i ended up w/ distortion too many times, so I started running it everytime.  It could still clip w/ the SL (so im not sure about that 'nothing above -2db') but rarely.  I never noticed compression artifacts, and if they were present they were surely preferable to the digital distortion that could result from levels being too hot.  my experience was that the mme was not a unit to 'run hot', at least with mic inputs at 16bit.  i wonder if external metering might help?  btw i was running earthworks z30x > mme

[marc0789]

I'd change the internal jumpers to high gain instead of low so you don't have to crank it. The diagram with jumper location is in the manual. I'd also turn off the SL as this may be causing the compressed sound.

I think that the best way to run the MME is to have the gain so that the lowest greens are always on with flickers of the second set of green LEDs. This should leave plenty of room for any sudden increase in decibel level. I'd read that the red LEDs are pretty forgiving, but I haven't found that to be true. Besides at 24 bit, you are using more with less gain than I am at 16 bit. I try to maximize bits and don't mind the effect of the SL kicking in (would rather have that than clipping). With SL, I can focus on the band and not levels. When I eventually go to 24 bit, I'll dial back the gain and turn off SL.

BTW - in the picture you posted at the ABB/moe show, the SL doesn't look like it is turned on (all the way to the left). And you definitely have the gain way up! 

sorry, but I disagree with just about everything above. you do *not* want to run the high gain setting. And the mme is extremely tough to clip. I shoot for lots of greens, lots of yellows and an occasional red. Never a touch of distortion. Running the SL when the music will exceed -4 is a bad idea. You will compress and distort the music.

How much gain does the high gain jumper setting add? I never found that out. I know it states 12-65 dB gain, but I assume that is for the factory default (high gain setting). Do the two settings overlap - like 12-40 and 30-65?

My first show with the MME was kaki king and I had the levels set for the first two (relatively quiet) acoustic guitar songs so that I had constant greens with flickering yellows. Then she started playing very loud and aggresively and I was pegging reds with horrible clipping on playback. Since then, I've run it with SL on. I guess I'll try it again without the SL. Thanks  +T 

gotta leave yourself some headroom for that kind of stuff, but that's a tough situation. To me the SL is a crutch that will result in unwelcome artifacts, in my experience, unless it's an all acoustic show with the potential for loud applause, I just don't use it.