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Offline kite

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New
« on: November 26, 2011, 01:11:06 PM »
Hello All

Newbie from Rotterdam, The Netherlands with a few filmed shows here and now i bought a Tascam DR 05 to tape better audio to get into the footage
I was going through the manual and i found some things i wanted to know some more about, anyone who can give me some answers on the next issues

1. I got a 4 Gb SDHC card in and if i make the settings for recording for example wav 24 bit 48k i can record 2h but the most the tascam say it's 2 Gb in but in the manual is nothing to find in this only the most the tascam can have is 32 Gb, does the recording goes on when the 2 Gb is reached. In the

2. I want my hands free to use my cam for shooting footage but in the level control i saw the next things
    Off ( clear), peak reduction, ( ?) auto level( clear) limiter( ?) ,  if i start filming i can't make any corrections in the tascam so what's the best setting in this

Thx for all coming answers
A rookie taper called Kite

Offline acidjack

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Re: New
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2011, 10:53:29 AM »
1. The deck can record longer than 2GB, but it will automatically begin a new file at that point.  You can seamlessly join the files later.
2. Do not use any automatic level controls of any kind.  Turn basically everything on the deck to OFF.

You'll be better served, sound-wise, if you put the DR-05 in a fixed position and don't attach it to the camera. I realize this is not that practical for some video folks.   On a related note, don't be surprised if those internal mics on it overload at loud rock shows. They aren't really designed for recording extremely loud program material like that.  If you have this problem, I recommend some inexpensive external mics and a small "battery box", which can be had for about 120 euros or so. 

You may also want to change the subject line of this post so that more people are inclined to read it (and so it's more useful to others in the future who may want the same info).

Best of luck.
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Offline kite

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Re: New
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2011, 12:58:34 PM »
Thx for your reply, i don't attach the mic from the cam to the tasacam. this cam had a real overloaded sound so that's why i bought the tascam. i wanted to add the sound later to the footage
But the thing is i can't correct anything to the tascam settings when the concert starts, i have a fine place found to "hide" the tascam but i can't to two things together

stevetoney

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Re: New
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2011, 09:26:53 AM »
But the thing is i can't correct anything to the tascam settings when the concert starts, i have a fine place found to "hide" the tascam but i can't to two things together

Dear Kite:

Welcome to taperssection!  The concerns you express above are common concerns for all tapers, not just you in your situation needing hands-free recording.  The first question is asked 'What settings to use?'

Fortunately for tapers these days, we have the ability to record in 24bit.  In comparing 24bit versus 16bit option, think about a photograph and how the number of pixels can affect the image quality.  When viewing a photo from a distance, the image quality of a low resolution photo will look fine, but when you zoom in, you see problems.  It's the same thing with audio.  On playback, you may not hear much difference between 16bit and 24bit, but when you zoom in to do any work on your audio files during post processing (we simply call this 'post'), you may start to have problems.

It's for this reason that the first solution to your concern is that you should ALWAYS record in 24bit.  You might be saving media space by recording in 16bit, but in the end if you have problems that need to be fixed, chances are good that you'll regret it if you've recorded in 16bit. 

Next, before the concert starts, as Acidjack suggests, if you want the best sound possible, make sure that all of your 'special' settings on your recorder are switched to the off position.  These special features are nice to have, but when they actually engage during the recording process, they will probably introduce negative sound artifacts into your recording that you will notice.   For example, on many recorders I've owned, when the limiter kicks in, there is an audible change in the sound of the recording.  Some limiters are much better than others...for example, the limiter on the Sony M10 is said to be very good and very transparent...so some people will leave the limiter engaged as a final safety to protect from having the levels peak and distort.  However, this should be irrelevant to you for the reasons stated in the next paragraph.  Please read on...

The final step is to make sure your levels are set conservatively low so that they will never peak during the show.  The goal would be to have your levels peaking around -12db, but it's OK if they peak even lower.  That way, the levels can go upward during the show so that you'll never have to worry about your levels peaking (going over zero).  Similarly, the levels can go downward and you'll still have a reasonable amount of headroom between the recording levels and the noise floor on your recorder.  Finally, since you've recorded in 24bit, you can use your software in post processing to adjust your levels upward to where you need them.

This is how 99+% of all tapers of live concerts record now, not just people in your situation that need hand-free recording.  Using this technique allows you to 'set it and forget it'...all you need to do is hit record, set your levels once and then you generally don't have to worry about whether or not the recording will turn out well.  Back in the old days of 16bit, we couldn't use this technique because there wasn't enough data resolution to allow for the post processing without a corresponding sound degradation.

If you must set your levels before the music starts, you'll need to use a little guess-work to choose a setting that is conservatively low enough to meet the above goals.  As long as you remember the settings you chose, after you've recorded a couple of concerts, you'll get a feel for what the proper setting needs to be in order to get close to the -12db goal.

I hope this answers your question.

Steve
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 09:52:26 AM by tonedeaf »

Offline kite

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Re: New
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2011, 10:29:21 AM »
Hello Steve

Thx for your big reply, all missing info is in it so i can go on with it. I knew about the 24bit recording (better use 24 bit / 96 K or the 48 K) so that was not new for me but all other and the other reply gave me the info i didn't had or understood from the manual and getting practical example's are more useful to me so i am thankful for them and i hope i will get some great taping

I am from The Netherlands and one thing was hard to translate " The final step is to make sure your levels are set conservatively low so that they will never peak during the show.  The goal would be to have your levels peaking around -12db, but it's OK if they peak even lower" you mean the input must be around - 12 db

Dirk

stevetoney

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Re: New
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2011, 11:13:41 AM »
Hello Steve

Thx for your big reply, all missing info is in it so i can go on with it. I knew about the 24bit recording (better use 24 bit / 96 K or the 48 K) so that was not new for me but all other and the other reply gave me the info i didn't had or understood from the manual and getting practical example's are more useful to me so i am thankful for them and i hope i will get some great taping

You're welcome!

The majority of concert tapers feel that 24/96 is overkill and that 24/48 does the job without any degradation in sound quality vs. 24/96.  The studio is where 24/96 or greater sample rates are more popular.  Since concert recordings are very imperfect to start for so many reasons (poor mic location, imperfect mics, audience noise, bad mixing, etc), almost everyone records at 24/48 or 24/44.1.  In your case, since you're going to mix your recording with video, you'll of course need 24/48 instead of 24/44.1. 

I am from The Netherlands and one thing was hard to translate " The final step is to make sure your levels are set conservatively low so that they will never peak during the show.  The goal would be to have your levels peaking around -12db, but it's OK if they peak even lower" you mean the input must be around - 12 db

Dirk

I'm referring to the levels that you see on the input meter that you see while you are recording sound onto the recorder.  The scale on that meter should go from...oh...maybe -50db to 0db. 

On most recorders, you will have a level meter that bounces up and down as sound is recorded through the microphones.  When I record, I make sure my peak level on the meter stays between a range from -6db to -12db, but when I record I am able to monitor my levels.  In your case, you said you aren't able to monitor your levels, so you should give yourself extra margin for error when setting your level at the start of a show.

As far as the input settings, I'm not familiar with the input settings on a Tascam DR-05.  However, as an example, on a Sony M10, the input levels are set with a dial that goes from 0 to 10.  For a very loud show, I could pre-set my recorder at about 2 or 3 and, because of experience, I knew that would correspond to giving me levels that would peak in a 'good' range (near -12db on the level meter), but would be low enough that I didn't need to worry that the initial setting was peaking too high.

It's FAR FAR better to always have your settings too low, because distortion resulting from peaking cannot be fixed in post.  Low levels (when recorded in 24bit) can be fixed in post. 

« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 11:17:22 AM by tonedeaf »

Offline kite

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Re: New
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2011, 01:09:18 PM »
The recording level of my tascam goes from 0 to 90, what i gonna do is test the support act sound and get the main band recording some lower cause i believe their playing louder   8)
I can't wait to get all told info used in the taping, this info was real useful, now just get the gear in the venue, never bin there before, me is told there is detection ports but no body search

The last time i tried to film this band it was real heavy, detection ports, body search, and about 20-30 security members in the room picking people out that took photo's and shot films with their phone's
it was my first time filming and i quited after the man next to me was "busted" by taking photo's, my friend was taken out the room and he had to delete all photo's taken with his phone

He also was in the US visiting three Van Halen shows and he told me he never had this, even not in the States, he was in Jacksonville and Tampa and earlier in MQG

I filmed Kiss ( last year) and FleetwoodMac  (2009)  in Holland and had no prob's getting the cam in, no search no asking and nobody checking on me, Kiss was filmed by eight people.
So it's time for a new project after a year of nothing  :D :D

stevetoney

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Re: New
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2011, 01:26:04 PM »
The recording level of my tascam goes from 0 to 90, what i gonna do is test the support act sound and get the main band recording some lower cause i believe their playing louder   8)

Perfect idea.  That's exactly the type of thing I would have suggested. 

Good luck!

Offline TimeBandit

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Re: New
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2011, 01:48:17 PM »
Especially because it is neccessary in the EU where almost taping isn't "Open" (open taping =  you are allowed to get gear in and don't have to hide it):

Learn to use your recorder / equipment "blind", especially the feel and position of the necessary buttons "record, pause, stop, the hold switch" etc... so you can manage basic operations without getting it out of the hidden area.
maybe put some gaffa tape on critical buttons like power switch or memory card eject ....

That's why you should use external mics, because when the deck is hidden it's internal mics were also hidden and would only bring useless results.

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Offline Belexes

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Re: New
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2011, 08:33:11 PM »
The majority of concert tapers feel that 24/96 is overkill and that 24/48 does the job without any degradation in sound quality vs. 24/96.  The studio is where 24/96 or greater sample rates are more popular.  Since concert recordings are very imperfect to start for so many reasons (poor mic location, imperfect mics, audience noise, bad mixing, etc), almost everyone records at 24/48 or 24/44.1.  In your case, since you're going to mix your recording with video, you'll of course need 24/48 instead of 24/44.1. 

I said something similar to this on a thread on Dime and basically was told I didn't know what I was talking about.  Too many people with golden ears.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: New
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2011, 08:59:49 PM »
Too many people with golden (r)ears.

FTFY
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

stevetoney

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Re: New
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2011, 09:36:27 PM »
Learn to use your recorder / equipment "blind", especially the feel and position of the necessary buttons "record, pause, stop, the hold switch" etc... so you can manage basic operations without getting it out of the hidden area.
maybe put some gaffa tape on critical buttons like power switch or memory card eject ....

These are good suggestions for people no matter whether you record open or not open.  I've made the suggestion a couple of times that turning the lights off and practicing operating your recorder without the benefit of looking is an exercise that will serve most tapers at some time or another.  I've been in situations many times before where my flashlight wasn't handy and if I was better knowing all of the buttons on my recorder by feel it would have helped out.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: New
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2011, 09:50:25 PM »
Know The Buttons By Feel should be the album title of the first release from Practicing In The Dark.

..a taper friendly band of course.

Welcome to the forum Kite, my apologies for the off topic posts.. just having some fun, we can't be serious all the time around here.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

stevetoney

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Re: New
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2011, 10:13:20 PM »
Know The Buttons By Feel should be the album title of the first release from Practicing In The Dark.

 :nightfevah:

Offline kite

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Re: New
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2011, 10:18:09 AM »
Know The Buttons By Feel should be the album title of the first release from Practicing In The Dark.

..a taper friendly band of course.

Welcome to the forum Kite, my apologies for the off topic posts.. just having some fun, we can't be serious all the time around here.

Thx Getbucket, i think i gonna find my way here

 

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