Topic: Hi I'm new! some questions

[PabloW]

Hi, I'm new here, and also new to all this world of tapers! the taping that made me find this forum is one from an Omar Rodriguez Lopez gig in new York, i listen to it A LOT and still can't believe how great quality it has, so I NEEDED to find out how this magics works. You can find the recording here: http://forum.thecomatorium.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=121016&st=0
The equipment used was SP-CMC-8 > CA-9100 > TEAC VR-10 (@16bit / 44.1) so it would be great to know if it's a nice equip or maybe it was just a great taper (maybe both), and also what are the names of other similar recorders that can be used to tape in a similar way to this taped gig!

1. This might be a very ridiculous question but, when you are at a gig with a recorder, maybe a preamp, and the external mics attached to your clothes, do you need to keep your mouth shut during all the gig? do you ruin the recording if you do some healthy headbanging?

2. As I am so new to all this world, I just realized that you use more than just one thing to make your recordings and I always thought you were always only using a recorder with really good built in mics in it. Is there anyone who tapes ONLy with a really good recorder that can achieve same quality as a "3-5 piece" equipment?

3. What would be the best recorder if I only wanted to use it for taping my band rehearsals? would be also great if in a future it could be also useful to tape gigs with more added equip


Thanks a lot, I'm learning a lot from this forum

[acidjack]

1. This might be a very ridiculous question but, when you are at a gig with a recorder, maybe a preamp, and the external mics attached to your clothes, do you need to keep your mouth shut during all the gig? do you ruin the recording if you do some healthy headbanging?

Yes, you should keep your mouth shut and yes, if the mics are attached to your head, you should only minimally move your head.  The mics are recording what is going on around them.  Unless you like the sound of yourself talking and whooshing noises from your head moving, don't talk and don't move (much)

2. As I am so new to all this world, I just realized that you use more than just one thing to make your recordings and I always thought you were always only using a recorder with really good built in mics in it. Is there anyone who tapes ONLy with a really good recorder that can achieve same quality as a "3-5 piece" equipment?

Generally, no.  Some more expensive recorders like the Sony D50 have passably decent internal mics, but even they will only make a decent recording if mounted properly.  It's not very easy to mount an entire recorder on your head.

3. What would be the best recorder if I only wanted to use it for taping my band rehearsals? would be also great if in a future it could be also useful to tape gigs with more added equip

What is your price range?

If you want something fairly inexpensive, with good build quality, decent internal mics in it that are probably OK for a band practice, and long battery life, I'd go with the Sony PCM-M10.  Or really, anything $200 or less that is not made by Zoom.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

1. This might be a very ridiculous question but, when you are at a gig with a recorder, maybe a preamp, and the external mics attached to your clothes, do you need to keep your mouth shut during all the gig? do you ruin the recording if you do some healthy headbanging?

Yes, you should keep your mouth shut and yes, if the mics are attached to your head, you should only minimally move your head.  The mics are recording what is going on around them.  Unless you like the sound of yourself talking and whooshing noises from your head moving, don't talk and don't move (much)

Yes, you need to be as quiet as possible and you need to limit your movement.  That being said, most of use a stand of some sort so we can limit our having to keep quiet and also allow us to move (say to the bar and/or bathroom).

2. As I am so new to all this world, I just realized that you use more than just one thing to make your recordings and I always thought you were always only using a recorder with really good built in mics in it. Is there anyone who tapes ONLy with a really good recorder that can achieve same quality as a "3-5 piece" equipment?

Generally, no.  Some more expensive recorders like the Sony D50 have passably decent internal mics, but even they will only make a decent recording if mounted properly.  It's not very easy to mount an entire recorder on your head.

Good recordings are most dependent on good placement of microphones.  Poor placement of great microphone may not sound any better than bad microphone with great placement.  External mics are generally easier to place in good locations (extend them above the crowd with stand, etc.)  External mics also tend to be more tolerant of loud sound and also allow more options as to how they are placed (different angles, different configs, different spacing, etc.)   

3. What would be the best recorder if I only wanted to use it for taping my band rehearsals? would be also great if in a future it could be also useful to tape gigs with more added equip

What is your price range?

If you want something fairly inexpensive, with good build quality, decent internal mics in it that are probably OK for a band practice, and long battery life, I'd go with the Sony PCM-M10.  Or really, anything $200 or less that is not made by Zoom.

There are a multitude of small hand-held recorders that are perfect for this.  Tascam makes several http://tascam.com/products/handheld_recorder/  The Sony M10 is also very nice for this, and can be used as a very high quality recorder at concerts/shows.

[Chuck]

The link you posted doesn't point to an audio file:

http://forum.thecomatorium.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=121016&st=0

[PabloW]

Thanks for the answers!

yes, the link is to the forum post with the audio, but I now realized it was uploaded to MU so it isn't there anymore. I will try to find some place to upload it, since it's around 500mb

[fmaderjr]

The equipment used was SP-CMC-8 > CA-9100 > TEAC VR-10 (@16bit / 44.1) so it would be great to know if it's a nice equip or maybe it was just a great taper (maybe both), and also what are the names of other similar recorders that can be used to tape in a similar way to this taped gig!

If the SP-CMC-8's were cardioids, they are not particularly popular here (most say the omnis are fine). If you want to use cards, the larger SP-CMC-4's are cheaper, still small enough to stealth with and have better bass response. The Church Audio CA-14's are also more popular here, even cheaper than the CMC-4's, and are thought by many here to sound as good or better than the CMC-4's (and way better than the CMC-8's). If you want cards & don't need switchable caps, I would go with CA-14's. Another reason to go with CA-14's over CMC-4's or 8's is that both the SP's mics need the 4.7 ohm mod to record loud stuff without distortion and that adds another $50 (I think) to their cost.

I concur with acidjack on the M10 being a great choice for your recorder, although there are many other good options that will work well.

It is safer to get a preamp or battery box to power your mics. The plug in power of most recorders is not high enough to optimally power most mics and you can get distortion at loud concerts. If you only record loud stuff, a battery box is fine (Church Audio & Sound Professionals make them). If you record quiet stuff as well, I would get a CA-9200 preamp from Church Audio.

If you decide to buy Church Audio gear, I would buy used if you can find it in the yard sale to save up to 6 weeks of shipping time, but if you have to buy new, Church gear is well worth the wait.

[fandelive]

If the SP-CMC-8's were cardioids, they are not particularly popular here (most say the omnis are fine). If you want to use cards, the larger SP-CMC-4's are cheaper, still small enough to stealth with and have better bass response. The Church Audio CA-14's are also more popular here, even cheaper than the CMC-4's, and are thought by many here to sound as good or better than the CMC-4's (and way better than the CMC-8's). If you want cards & don't need switchable caps, I would go with CA-14's. Another reason to go with CA-14's over CMC-4's or 8's is that both the SP's mics need the 4.7 ohm mod to record loud stuff without distortion and that adds another $50 (I think) to their cost.

The 4.7k mod is the equivalent of the "low-sens" option on the soundprofessionals website. You'll have to add it if you want to record loud shows with soundprofessionals mics. Church Mics will handle high SPL without the mod I think.

About chosing the right mic, the best thing to do is to go over dimeadozen, archive.org, to download and listen to tons of shows to make up your mind. Get the mic that sound pleasant to your ears.

I (but that's a personal opinion) still have to hear a stealth job made with CA-14's that sounds great to me.
In stealth situation, I've found them to sound fishy and to lack of definition.

If you want to move your head while recording, I'd suggest you to consider getting omnis over cardioids.
I'm stealth taping using cardioids for quite a while now (4 years). I'm pretty pleased with the results but I must admit not being able to move my head during the show is a bit boring. So I'm thinking about getting a pair of omni mics.

[fmaderjr]

I (but that's a personal opinion) still have to hear a stealth job made with CA-14's that sounds great to me.
In stealth situation, I've found them to sound fishy and to lack of definition.

As you say it's a personal opinion, but that's not my experience. I've always gotten a great pull with CA-14's (and even CA-11's) mounted in a hat. If clipped to a shirt collar, I wouldn't be surprised if I didn't like the sound much either.

[fandelive]

I've always gotten a great pull with CA-14's (and even CA-11's) mounted in a hat. If clipped to a shirt collar, I wouldn't be surprised if I didn't like the sound much either.

You're right : pulling off a great tape is also (if not essentially) a matter of reaching the sweet spot and mounting your mics properly.

[noahbickart]

Some other basic information you may find useful.

Most folks around here engage in two similar, yet distinct kinds of recording, which we refer to as "open" and "less than open," or "stealth."

In the former, the band allows audience members to record the concert, so people come into the show with more gear and use light stands or clamps to place microphones in ideal locations, and run cables to their other gear.

In the latter, audience members are forced to conceal their gear while entering the venue and during recording. Thus they mount their microphones on their persons...

Because of the distinct needs of these two applications, the gear varies somewhat...

[LikeASong]

Hi, I'm new here, and also new to all this world of tapers! the taping that made me find this forum is one from an Omar Rodriguez Lopez gig in new York, i listen to it A LOT and still can't believe how great quality it has, so I NEEDED to find out how this magics works. You can find the recording here: http://forum.thecomatorium.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=121016&st=0
The equipment used was SP-CMC-8 > CA-9100 > TEAC VR-10 (@16bit / 44.1) so it would be great to know if it's a nice equip or maybe it was just a great taper (maybe both), and also what are the names of other similar recorders that can be used to tape in a similar way to this taped gig!

1. This might be a very ridiculous question but, when you are at a gig with a recorder, maybe a preamp, and the external mics attached to your clothes, do you need to keep your mouth shut during all the gig? do you ruin the recording if you do some healthy headbanging?

2. As I am so new to all this world, I just realized that you use more than just one thing to make your recordings and I always thought you were always only using a recorder with really good built in mics in it. Is there anyone who tapes ONLy with a really good recorder that can achieve same quality as a "3-5 piece" equipment?

3. What would be the best recorder if I only wanted to use it for taping my band rehearsals? would be also great if in a future it could be also useful to tape gigs with more added equip


Thanks a lot, I'm learning a lot from this forum

Hello, Pablo, welcome to this friendly board and to the taping world too You'll find yourself obsessed with this hobby/lifestyle in no time!

I've been a serious taper since only 13 months ago, so I feel capable to answer your questions in quite a more "newbie" way than most experienced tapers around here haha.. Of course their answers will be more valuable from a tech point of view, but I've been where you are very few time ago


First of all - I'm not a conventional taper in a sense that I mostly tape bands for which I'm passionate about, so I purchase my tickets, do my fan long-queues before gates open and I enjoy every show as it was my last. Then again, it goes along with your character and the kind of shows you see; if you're a fan of live rock music, you'll know that Latin countries and zones (like Italy, South America, Spain, etc) have strongly passionate audiences. I always enjoy each one of the shows I attend, and I additionally happen to tape some of them (and not like the opposite). Of course, I try to find some compromise between hard-die enjoying it and getting a decent tape of the show. I headbang along to those songs suitable to headbanging, I jump along with the music (moderately) and I sing along (sometimes louder than others). And I manage to pull out decent shows.

This is a sample from The Kooks, an indie rock band from UK, which performed here last September. I didn't stop jumping and singing along during any of their 17 songs. And it's one of the best tapes I've pulled! Lineage was a pair of tiny MM-HSLO mics, mounted on a cap I was wearing, and directly plugged into a Roland R-05, I was at first row; outdoor venue. Sample (The Kooks covering Foster The People's Pumped Up Kicks and featuring Mark Foster): http://www.goear.com/listen/7e301b2/pumped-up-kicks-the-kooks-feat-mark-foster

As others have said, omnidirectional mics are of course more forgiving with your movements (body&head). You'll find a bit more problem with cardiod microphones as they're directional and they'll response to your head movements (assuming you mount them on your head); I taped one of my first serious shows with a pair of cardioid CA-14 microphones and you can definitely notice the difference. I was at the sweet spot, back against the sound desk, at an indoor, 17.000 people venue, and couldn't stop dancing and jumping either. You'll notice excellent stereo separation (more easy to achieve with cardioid microphones), specially at the guitar-only part at 02:25, but you'll notice a slight lack of clarity and the sound becomes muffled every now and then (eg. when the microphones stopped being perfectly aimed to the stacks due to my movements). Sample (Arctic Monkeys performing one of their first&best singles, The View From The Afternoon): http://www.goear.com/listen/389fce5/the-view-from-the-afternoon-live-in-madrid-2012-arctic-monkeys


Regarding using just a recorded with its built-in microphones, I'm not that radical to discourage you as most members here, but you'll definitely notice a lack of sound quality when compared to a 2-3 piece gear (recorder + [power supply] + external microphones) unless your situation is ideal (a.k.a. you are or know the owner of the venue and you can mount the recorder high above the crowd and ideally placed regarding to the stacks), virtually any combination of microphones+power supply+unexpensive recorder will give far better results than using a expensive recorder's internal mics. I have taped rock shows with my Zoom Q3HD internal mics and the result was surprisingly good, BUT that's when I couldn't carry (or didn't have with me yet) a pair of external microphones. The Zoom H2 is regarded as having an excellent pair of internal microphones, but its build quality lacks the same greatness. Other really expensive recorders like Sony PCM-50, PCD-D1 or Olympus LS-100, which could arguably achieve a similar quality fue to better build quality and good internal mics, will cost more than an unexpensive recorder (like the TEAC VR-10 which achieved your adored Omar Rodríguez López recording) + an unexpensive power supply + an unexpensive (used) pair of external microphones. If you go this route, there are several options, like the CMC-8 you suggested, but also some made by Church Audio and Microphone Madness. You could get a recorder for $80, a power supply for $50 and a pair of mics for $120 and still be on a lower budget than a monster handheld recorder like those suggested


And regarding your band practice... Well, I tape my band with the same setup than I use to tape shows

[fandelive]

This is a sample from The Kooks, an indie rock band from UK, which performed here last September. I didn't stop jumping and singing along during any of their 17 songs. And it's one of the best tapes I've pulled! Lineage was a pair of tiny MM-HSLO mics, mounted on a cap I was wearing, and directly plugged into a Roland R-05, I was at first row; outdoor venue. Sample (The Kooks covering Foster The People's Pumped Up Kicks and featuring Mark Foster): http://www.goear.com/listen/7e301b2/pumped-up-kicks-the-kooks-feat-mark-foster

Looks like I've found my next mics 
I'm already a big big fan of my MM-HLSC's but man the bass rendition of the MM-HLSO's is truely amazing !!!

[LikeASong]

This is a sample from The Kooks, an indie rock band from UK, which performed here last September. I didn't stop jumping and singing along during any of their 17 songs. And it's one of the best tapes I've pulled! Lineage was a pair of tiny MM-HSLO mics, mounted on a cap I was wearing, and directly plugged into a Roland R-05, I was at first row; outdoor venue. Sample (The Kooks covering Foster The People's Pumped Up Kicks and featuring Mark Foster): http://www.goear.com/listen/7e301b2/pumped-up-kicks-the-kooks-feat-mark-foster

Looks like I've found my next mics 
I'm already a big big fan of my MM-HLSC's but man the bass rendition of the MM-HLSO's is truely amazing !!!

They are awesome, even more if you consider how much they costed. They're property of my friend Pridix who got them here for $100/80€. I would spend the exact DOUBLE of that amount if a mint pair appeared on the Yard Sale.

[F.O.Bean]

Best of luck and happy taping!

[daspyknows]

Some other basic information you may find useful.

Most folks around here engage in two similar, yet distinct kinds of recording, which we refer to as "open" and "less than open," or "stealth."

In the former, the band allows audience members to record the concert, so people come into the show with more gear and use light stands or clamps to place microphones in ideal locations, and run cables to their other gear.

In the latter, audience members are forced to conceal their gear while entering the venue and during recording. Thus they mount their microphones on their persons...

Because of the distinct needs of these two applications, the gear varies somewhat...

As T-Watts mentioned earlier int he thread some of us use a stand, well as a stealth taper I can say we are the stand