Topic: hm.. Is NOT BTing a show and trading "old school" archaic? (or: am i a bitch 2?)

[taperkat]

recently i converted a couple shows (my Vertical Horizon from 10.8 and my PMB from 10.2) in an attempt to well, quite frankly, get people off my back. I requested people email me about Vertical and i haven't gotten the PMB yet (my friend needs to track it for me). I sent an email to a list of about 500 people, and posted on another board that has quite a few people on it, and just said "Hey, email me, and we can work out getting the show!"

I got about.. 20 emails? Which to me is pretty funny. All the people that bitch I don't put out a show didn't email me, for one, which pretty much tells me that they just want to bitch at me or have someone be their punching bag.

Now, there are 2 copies of the Vertical show. Mine is my normal rig, and I stood directly above (i was on the balcony, he ran his stand high from the floor) him, so it's virtually the same spot. He got there/set up late, so he's missing some of the first song. A minor thing, but you'd think they would want the show that has it all.

My copy is complete, while his first song is missing most of it. I sent the song to him, but I was told by someone else - not the taper, he isn't answering my question I put on the board... funny about that, really... - that "mine is just too shitty of quality to listen to."

Yes, my rig may not have cost as much, and it does sound *different*. I fail to see how that makes it "shitty" quality. Yes, it does sound like a different show. All I asked is that you email me, and then just find me on AOLIM, and I'll send you the show. How hard is that? Is that just tooooooo difficult like "oh my god i have to show effort and not just click on 

his show is here:
http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=8506

and, of course, I refuse to post mine on torrent anywhere.

And both Jon and Ketan are the *moderators* of this particular board re: the comments. And I met Jon after this particular show. Seemed like an ok guy. But hey, what do I know, people act differently on and offline... I don't, but that's just me.

However, now, people on the message board are taking pot shots at me. And, not nice ones.

ass #1: "orrrrr, they could all just get the torrent at the same time? and the more people, the faster it goes....and the quality of the show is super high. but either way "

me: "... Okay, fine, forget you guys. Jordan, you're an ass. Jon's copy wouldn't be complete without mine. Maybe I shouldn't have given it to him, and kept the only completed copy of the show."

ass #1: "the only reason i posted that was to get a rise out of you....because the same way you did not appreciate my post, im sure jon didnt appreciate yours....so if ur gonna dish it, kat, take it! and for the record, jon did not use what you sent him because the quality was too poor."

me: "True, Jon?"

So first I ask myself why the FUCK i bent over backwards trying to get this show converted.

Then i realized that people don't care anymore. That they just want a show because they do not have it. And they don't have a problem being an ass about it either.  Of course after this fiasco they've also assured they will not get any more Vertical shows if I get them converted anyway due to their sucky attitude about it...

For me, I'm at my wit's end, because it seems no matter what I do anymore when it comes to taping, it's just not *right*.

I get accused of "hoarding shows" because I have a lot of rare shit on my list. Oh wait, I'm sorry... if you don't want to treat me with respect and you want to be an ass to me, why the fuck should I give you *anything*.

I was asked this question by Ketan (the other mod):
"I'm just wondering why, Kat, you are against BT and etree and archive.org and resort to 1998 levels of getting files to people?"

and this was my response:
"Because I don't believe that taping a show should be reduced to a few clicks of the mouse. I"ve met some awesome people simply by trading a show with them.

And, of course, as well, eBay."

.... is there a right and wrong to this situation? in my mind, I'm not sharing any shows with them, because it seems no matter what I do, I'm wrong. Of course, I go tape the shows that usually no one else tapes in terms of Vertical. I think this is the first Vertical show in 13 or 14 there has *been* another taper at a show.

And... if it's a band or a tape I I know a LOT of people woud want  (liike..  um... Jazz Mandolin Project from 2002? tapes?) I probably will torrent them - those are a good example because Fishman played with them and if they don't have them already they would probably dig it.... It's just bands that i know and love and that I really don't want to torrent.

And, as well, the band asked me for copies of the show, and they were like "however long it takes, we'll wait."

So, what the fuck. Are these people just bitching because they are using this as a reason to bitch, or am I really in the wrong?

(oh - and gigantic huge thanks to Alex for helping me with my shn problem. =] )

[thoman8r]

kat, honestly I don't know why you even bother with people like this.  Let them tape the shows themselves.  I know you want to fight the good fight but sometimes it's just not worth it.

[Brian Skalinder]

You're a bitch.  But what does that have to do with anything?   

Seriously, here's what I'd do.  This seems a recurring theme and a source of major aggravation.  Wanna prevent the issue from arising regularly and reduce the aggravation?  Reduce the number of clueless people asking you for recordings.

[1] take your list offline
This obviously will reduce the bohackus jabloney's who happen to stumble across your list and ask you for recordings.  The "stumbled across your website" people are usually the most clueless of the bunch as they're not with-it enough to be hooked into BT, etc.  Although sometimes their cluelessness leads them to be the most polite because they're afraid of overstepping their (unknown to them) boundaries.  Major source of aggravation.  Take the list offline, they disappear from your life.  Aggravation gone.

[2] don't offer to make any copies of any shows for anyone publicly
Publicly offering shows encourages people to ask you for the recordings personally.  Fans monitoring messageboards may be more likely to know the score, know how things work, but...many/most don't (highly band dependent).  And plenty of these people have become so accustomed to finding and d/ling any show they want, any time, any where, they somehow feel entitled.  HUGE source of aggravation.  Instead, offer privately to make copies for close friends, fans you trust, and people who understand a bit more about taping than the average fan, and let them distribute to the masses.  Bottom line:  don't offer publicly, people won't know you have the shows.  Therefore they won't harangue you about it.  Aggravation gone.

[3] if conversations come up about shows, tapers, etc. for these bands, ignore them
As conversations here and elsewhere have demonstrated, we largely can't win when it comes to the idiots who are self-absorbed and only interested in what they (clearly, to us) consider their "entitlement" to recordings of the show.  Going head to head with them is rarely effective, so why waste the energy?  Additionally, you do come across a bit...stiff in these sorts of discussions and seem to be fairly easily baited into engaging in 1:1 rants.  I know you, I know you're not a bitch, but others don't have pervious (ahem!) previous experience with your real-world or online self and don't quite know how to take it, nor - because they're not tapers - do they understand the sources of your frustration, your perspective on the matter.  Stay out of the effectively useless conversations = aggravation gone.

[4] email / IM correspondence
If for some reason pinwits still ask you for a recording for one reason or another (despite [1-2], don't explain why you can't or won't make 'em a copy.  Just say simply you're sorry, but unable to help them out (and if possible, direct them to someone/somewhere who can).  Expressing sympathy makes them feel like you'd help them if you could.  Witholding the reason you aren't helping them doesn't create an opportunity for them to question you (thereby dragging you into the aggravating interactions).  Directing them to someone/somewhere else - like a fan messageboard, db.etree.org (even if you know they won't find what they're looking for!) - helps them feel that you *are* helping them, even if you aren't helping them directly.  Therefore, they're more likely to respond courteously and move along.  All of which results in:  you guessed it, aggravation gone.

[5] real-life in-person encounters (e.g. at shows)
Same as above.  Don't get dragged into discussion about why or why not, your motivations, etc.  All it does is encourage people to try to poke through your personal reasons for not helping.  See [4]. 

[pfife]

OK, not that I have any room to be a taper snob, but there's obviously something else going on here, cause something tells me that a RodeNT5 -> UA-5 (no mods?) is not the most smokin source on the planet...

EDIT: But, not BT'ing is totally cool.  I don't BT anymore, mainly because of Ebay.

[taperkat]

my rig: SP-BMC-1 -> SPSB-2(mod)-> M1.

But, it's the only thing I have, and I've used the same mics since July of 2000. And I like them, and I like the sound I get from them (even if the show sounds bad).

and thanks.. it's good to know i'm not the only one that thinks BT is a loose cannon..

[taperkat]

*puts on her green makeup and becomes the wicked bitch* 

*goes to find out how the hell to save that etree list like someone suggested yesterday*

As for #2, this has been the only show I've gotten converted/offered to them. I have told them that I've been planning to convert, but you know, since they don't have it. But I see your point, completely. And I kinda felt that by offering them publicly (i mean come on, you email someone, tell them on aim hey i'd like a copy, and you get the show? I guess I thought it was public enough)

 #4, there is usually no one else that can help, because they don't have the copies of the show. =] But I relish the thought of turning pinwits, as you called them, loose on the board.

Thanks, Brian.

I'm beginning to wonder why I worry about it at all. When I talk to (most) bands about message boards, they're like "oh my god, you put up with it?"

maybe I should take that more to heart.. *hmm.*

now i have more to think about...

[pfife]

I tossed a little note up there- not even regarding the quality of the recording- just that saying that another source of a recording is available, or will be available,  be considered "undermining"  is a little disturbing, and is clearly not in line with what I have considered to be a "taper ethic";  It smacks of one taper being the sole source for a show, and having way too much pride in it.

When I make a txt file that has the source info, I am sure to note if other people taped the show, etc. b/c I am comfortable with knowing that my source may not be the best, or even subjectively the best of the listener.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

Archaic???  I actually think that snail mailing is real "trading".  You have to meet and greet folks, get to know them and become friends.  Then you trust each other to trade.

Hi-speed foregoes all of that personal connection and is tantamount to stealing.  Any jack-ass can (and does - see ebay) DL stuff without doing anything to contribute to the trading community.

I've been trading snail-mail for 10 years now, and except for the 3 months that Furhtur first cam out, I've never dealt with hi-speed.

Those that bitch about now getting "their" download is just a greedy wookie pig.  They need to be taken out and shot.

One of pet peeves is hearing people at shows asking if it'll go on Archive.org.  They don't want to meet me for a copy, because it means they will have to be nice, considerate, and maybe have to put some effort into it.  By DLing, they can be the biggest assholes to everyone and still get "their" stuff.

I recently put a show on BT, just to try it out.  I doubt I'll seed anything to anywhere, although I do have an always open B&P policy...

So, Kat, you are not being a bitch, and you are letting those leeching bastards get to you if you think you are.  If they want the music so bad, they can fork out the loot to get a rig.  Most if not all of them are rich little college kids and mommy is footing the bills anyways.

Tell all those people to fuck off.  I would post my whole list and write in big bold letters at the top:  "no hi-speed DLs from me due to the bad attitudes from:  xxx, xxx, xxx" (list their names).  If people bitch about it, tell them to fuck off and list them too.

Its not like we are obligated to share anything (to take their attitude towards it), so just like the Soup Nazi:  No Tapes for you!

Terry

[pfife]

Archaic???  I actually think that snail mailing is real "trading".  You have to meet and greet folks, get to know them and become friends.  Then you trust each other to trade.

Hi-speed foregoes all of that personal connection and is tantamount to stealing.  Any jack-ass can (and does - see ebay) DL stuff without doing anything to contribute to the trading community.

I've been trading snail-mail for 10 years now, and except for the 3 months that Furhtur first cam out, I've never dealt with hi-speed.

Those that bitch about now getting "their" download is just a greedy wookie pig.  They need to be taken out and shot.

One of pet peeves is hearing people at shows asking if it'll go on Archive.org.  They don't want to meet me for a copy, because it means they will have to be nice, considerate, and maybe have to put some effort into it.  By DLing, they can be the biggest assholes to everyone and still get "their" stuff.

I recently put a show on BT, just to try it out.  I doubt I'll seed anything to anywhere, although I do have an always open B&P policy...

So, Kat, you are not being a bitch, and you are letting those leeching bastards get to you if you think you are.  If they want the music so bad, they can fork out the loot to get a rig.  Most if not all of them are rich little college kids and mommy is footing the bills anyways.

Tell all those people to fuck off.  I would post my whole list and write in big bold letters at the top:  "no hi-speed DLs from me due to the bad attitudes from:  xxx, xxx, xxx" (list their names).  If people bitch about it, tell them to fuck off and list them too.

Its not like we are obligated to share anything (to take their attitude towards it), so just like the Soup Nazi:  No Tapes for you!

Terry

Speaking of which- did you get the B&P?  Did you tell me you did already?

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

Speaking of which- did you get the B&P?  Did you tell me you did already?

Oh, I don;t know...  But I'm pretty sure I did...  I've been out of town for a couple of weeks, so it my just be in my mailbox at the office...

What did you send me???

Terry

[pfife]

Black Keys - Detroit
Tortoise - Detroit
and Ravi Shankar - Ann Arbor

I think I sent you Ravi.... remember, I had an extra disc, so you picked?

[eric.B]

are you taping for yourself..    or for others?

sounds like the latter..

[ashevillain]

For me, I'm at my wit's end, because it seems no matter what I do anymore when it comes to taping, it's just not *right*.

I'm going to give you some advice....you might like it...you might not. I don't know you, you don't know me. No worthwhile assumptions can really be made by me about you or you about me, right? Ok, now we've determined a substantial level of objectivity, right?

Ok, here it is: Do the tapes sound good to you? Do you enjoy listening to your own recordings? Are you the person solely responsible for pressing record?

If the answer to all these questions is YES, then you are doing nothing wrong and should not feel frustrated by others. Fuck the other ppl! So what if you are a bitch and get called "Bitch!" 10000 times...does it really matter? I'm an asshole...and I couldn't really give a fuck. To me it would be kinda silly to spend thousands of dollars on gear, be surrounded by ppl w/ varying levels of inebriation and ignorance, and NOT be an asshole (or in your case, a bitch). At the end of the day your personal satisfaction is all that should matter, regardless of others feelings about you.

[pfife]

kat, honestly I don't know why you even bother with people like this.  Let them tape the shows themselves.  I know you want to fight the good fight but sometimes it's just not worth it.

+t in 12 for your last comment over there.

[taperkat]

Ashevillian - the reason I got into taping is because I was sick of going to shows and seeing no one there taping them. 

"are you taping for yourself..    or for others?"

Actually, for myself. And this has been discussed in another topic on that board, and they all think that I should be taping to get it out as soon as possible, because after all, it's all bout getting the band known. They dont' understand why I would tape for the band first, myself second, and everyone else third.... And this coming out of a band's fanbase who did sell 2 million copies of their big major label debut...

I don't know. I'm transferring to another person right now via aim, and it usually only takes 3-4 hours. (anywhere from 25-45 kb/sec, and last night even when i was playing final fantasy XI, same speed).. I haven't been on many torrents that go that quickly =]

ah well. I'm still thinking about a lot of things, and trying to figure out how to get my list into XML like.. whomever suggested yesterday (sorry, I can't remember, but I +ted you earlier).

"I would post my whole list and write in big bold letters at the top:  "no hi-speed DLs from me due to the bad attitudes from:  xxx, xxx, xxx" (list their names).  If people bitch about it, tell them to fuck off and list them too."

Oh, I wish I could do that. But since I do work with a lot of bands, I think they'd probably consider that somewhat unprofessional (lol)

[Tony B]

FWIW, I don't BT. I've seeded one show, and saw it up on ebay a week later...so much for that crap. Hell, I rarely trade, but when I do, you can be assured it's snail mail. Nothing wrong with it--it's how I started trading, and still works the best.

Hey, I tape for myself first as well. Trading a particular show out, or worrying about "getting it out to the community" is pretty much last on my list. Selfish? Maybe. Laziness? Definitely. 

[taperkat]

and it looks like our newest member of the boards is the taper of that bt show.

Hi jon!

Oh: and that jordan guy?

doesn't tape shows. 

[jessedscott]

Kat, didn't you go through this once before? You need me to ruffle some feathers and piss some people off, I'm good at it



oh yeah, your such a bitch for taping the show(s) and offering it up to others, that just sucks! +T

[taperkat]

heee. no thanks but thanks =] I think this has proved i'm pretty damn good at doing it by myself...

sigh.

[MattD]

Check your PMs, Kat.

[AlphaQuam]

I'd just like make a few comments here before my name gets dragged through the mud.

First, I think Brian made some good points in his post here.  Pfife, I have never mentioned other sources in my info files... it's just not something I've done and I haven't come across it before.  It simply hadn't occurred to me.  Perhaps I'll do that in the future, though.  And, please, don't kick my rig.  I just don't have the money to buy anything better.  What I have is good enough for me, and, in my opinion, that's what matters.  Nothing else is going on here... if you question the (subjective) quality then listen to the samples.  Your comments on the torrent page, however, are very well put.

Jordan can be an ass, Kat, and I hate it when people put words in my mouth.  I never said your post or source or anything was undermining my efforts, and I don't believe it was.  How sources could undermine each other, I do not know.  You were nice enough to send me the first track of your source, and I really appreciate that (hence the Modern Troubadours offer).  However, I decided to just let my recording stand on its own... mostly because of work/laziness and the fact that mine was already tracked/faded.

I've never had problems in the past with posting torrents... perhaps I will reconsider my distribution methods for the future.

[thoman8r]

I'd just like make a few comments here before my name gets dragged through the mud.

First, I think Brian made some good points in his post here.  Pfife, I have never mentioned other sources in my info files... it's just not something I've done and I haven't come across it before.  It simply hadn't occurred to me.  Perhaps I'll do that in the future, though.  And, please, don't kick my rig.  I just don't have the money to buy anything better.  What I have is good enough for me, and, in my opinion, that's what matters.  Nothing else is going on here... if you question the (subjective) quality then listen to the samples.  Your comments on the torrent page, however, are very well put.

Jordan can be an ass, Kat, and I hate it when people put words in my mouth.  I never said your post or source or anything was undermining my efforts, and I don't believe it was.  How sources could undermine each other, I do not know.  You were nice enough to send me the first track of your source, and I really appreciate that (hence the Modern Troubadours offer).  However, I decided to just let my recording stand on its own... mostly because of work/laziness and the fact that mine was already tracked/faded.

I've never had problems in the past with posting torrents... perhaps I will reconsider my distribution methods for the future.

Jon, thanks for coming on here and clearing this up.  I did notice that you seemed to be staying out of it, and that your friend seemed to be putting words into your mouth.

Hopefully you'll stick around here for awhile.  We're a good bunch here once you get to know us and, as you can tell, we protect our own.

Dave

[taperkat]

As a moderator of Liberty, Jon, you realize you can do something about Jordan? And as well, can you please answer the question publicly that I asked - I know you answered it here, but doing it on liberty would give a good slap in the face to Jordan.

[pfife]

Pfife, I have never mentioned other sources in my info files... it's just not something I've done and I haven't come across it before.  It simply hadn't occurred to me.  Perhaps I'll do that in the future, though.  And, please, don't kick my rig.  I just don't have the money to buy anything better.  What I have is good enough for me, and, in my opinion, that's what matters.  Nothing else is going on here... if you question the (subjective) quality then listen to the samples.  Your comments on the torrent page, however, are very well put.

Hey- I've gotta apologize... I have a tendency to spout off at the mouth somewhat quicky.... I am just noticing that "jordan_s" is not the person who recorded/seeded the show ;   I would only bash someone else's rig if they were bashing someone elses rig.

Like I said, I have no room to talk...  there's people here that could eat my rig and shit it out, and tape it, and it would sound better than my rig.

Thanks for coming and giving your side/opinions.  You should stick around- we truly are good people here.

+t

[AlphaQuam]

It's good to see you guys are understanding (but negative tickets are a bad thing, right?).  It's quite a community you've got here and I'm hopeful I can contribute in a positive way.

[thoman8r]

(but negative tickets are a bad thing, right?). 

Yes, there are a few idiots on here who will -T you for not liking the correct bands, not having the correct political opinion, or because they are just sad, lonely men.

But mostly we are a fun bunch. 

+T to get you back to 0. 

[tibbsa]

OK, not that I have any room to be a taper snob, but there's obviously something else going on here, cause something tells me that a RodeNT5 -> UA-5 (no mods?) is not the most smokin source on the planet...

Maybe not, but it IS a very good recording by my standards, actually...  probably one of THE cleanest VH shows I have. 

[taperkat]

OK, not that I have any room to be a taper snob, but there's obviously something else going on here, cause something tells me that a RodeNT5 -> UA-5 (no mods?) is not the most smokin source on the planet...

Maybe not, but it IS a very good recording by my standards, actually...  probably one of THE cleanest VH shows I have. 

As I've been told. the main difference between my show and Jon's is that mine's distant. as in: Not in your face booming loud. I haven't downloaded Jon's, but someone else did and compared for me.

But, all I do to mine is rip it into cool edit, and then cut the tracks. I don't do much cutting off/equalizing/what have you... it's pretty much just a raw dump.

[tibbsa]

As I've been told. the main difference between my show and Jon's is that mine's distant. as in: Not in your face booming loud. I haven't downloaded Jon's, but someone else did and compared for me.

But, all I do to mine is rip it into cool edit, and then cut the tracks. I don't do much cutting off/equalizing/what have you... it's pretty much just a raw dump.

Ah yes, the quick-and-dirty edit.  I haven't heard your show [yet - though I did send a message to the gmail address] so I can't really say.  I just know that his was great for my ears... though perhaps the $5000 rig people wouldn't agree.  (shrug.)

[taperkat]

I've emailed everyone that emailed me via gmail....

[AlphaQuam]

OK, not that I have any room to be a taper snob, but there's obviously something else going on here, cause something tells me that a RodeNT5 -> UA-5 (no mods?) is not the most smokin source on the planet...

Maybe not, but it IS a very good recording by my standards, actually...  probably one of THE cleanest VH shows I have. 

Thanks tibbsa!  I must admit I am guilty of some post-processing... I do it to almost all my shows (some more than others of course).  It's one of those things that has to be done when you're running Rodes.

Kat, you should just download an mp3 off my site if you want a quick comparison.