Topic: Help improving onstage recording...

[Tall Adam]

Hey all,

So I recently took over a gig recording Wayne Krantz at the 55 Bar in NYC. Its a tiny venue, and there is no PA so its onstage or nothin'. the band is jammed into a corner (see diagram below). I ran XY because I figured any other config would be too spread (all drums left, all guitar right). I ran at about table/guitar amp head height. Upon listening back Wayne (and I) feel that the recording lacks bass and it is a little too "seperated" in his words (i dont really mind the image, but i agree it can be somewhat annoying to have all guitar right, all drums left). We both agree it is better to solve this problem at the source, not in post with a bass boost.

I run SP C4s > UA-5 > IBM t41 (unfortunately at 16/44.1 cuz wayne wants copies he can listen to immediately and i dont feel like sticking around to dither after the show).

Here are my thoughts on how to fix these situations:

1) run ORTF in the same spot, raise the mics more to the 4-5' level so they are above the guitar amp and thus get more bass. My fear with this though is that it will worsen the "too seperate" problem of guitar left, drums right.

2) run ORTF at closer to 6' but angled downwards slightly with a boom as to get more of the bass

3) run spread omnis, 4-5' up, ~10" apart (about the most i can do with my current set up)

SO: what would you guys suggest? any other ideas which may help? Check out the diagram and let me know!

MP3 sample to follow shortly

Thanks!
-Adam

FYI: in the attached diagram, the black sections extend all the way back, as do the tables, it is a long narrow bar.

[Tall Adam]

ok sample wouldnt attach, so i used my webspace and put a longer one up there:

http://homepages.nyu.edu/~aea260/sample1.mp3

[goose]

What did the person that had the gig before you do that was satisfactory?

[Tall Adam]

no idea...i know he runs schoeps though...

[Tall Adam]

FWIW, where I was sitting (see diagram) I couldnt hear the bass player much (which is a shame cuz he was SICK) and I have made Wayne aware of this. The recording sounds much like my seat did.

[ashevillain]

1) run ORTF in the same spot, raise the mics more to the 4-5' level so they are above the guitar amp and thus get more bass. My fear with this though is that it will worsen the "too seperate" problem of guitar left, drums right.

2) run ORTF at closer to 6' but angled downwards slightly with a boom as to get more of the bass

ORTF is definitely gonna exaggerate the stereo separation but IME does give better bass response than X-Y.

3) run spread omnis, 4-5' up, ~10' apart (about the most i can do with my current set up)

How wide is the stage? This is the option I would choose but I don't think I'd split them 10' at that close distance...more like 2' or 3' at the most.

[Tall Adam]

"stage" is as wide as a drumset and a marshall cab. literally, next to the cab is the walking space to the bathroom, behind the corner where the band plays.

shit i meant 10 inches, ill fix that

[Tall Adam]

bump^ anyone got any help for me?

[kgreener]

i'm not gonna be any help with this as i've never stage-taped, so i'll leave it to the experts.  but any chance this Krantz stuff is available for sharing?  or is it just for his own purposes?

agreed.  this is some sick stuff, and i'd love to get a copy!  if not, i do understand though.

+T for your recording gig, and good luck with improving your on-stage recordings.

[Tall Adam]

krantz's stuff is only available via his website, it think its 4.95 per set, mp3 downloads.

[NJFunk]

How about running the Omni caps on the C4's instead of the Cards?  That would certainly take care of the separation issue, and I think it wold help the bass response as well.

[Tall Adam]

yeah im thinkin i may try spreading the omnis and running a bit higher, will cause less seperation for sure, and probably get more bass if im above the guitar cab. also...thoughts on omnis spread, i know it doesnt matter in theory but: facing forwards, or NOS style?

thanks to all whove pitched in +ts

[Tim]

I've always found that I get more bass in my stage tapes the *lower* I run my stand.

without seeing your stage setup in person it's hard to say if it will work for you but it's something to consider. I've always noticed this no matter the stage setup or band...

[Tall Adam]

hmm, interesting....did the diagram do any good in helping you understand the set up? anyone else have thoughts on this lower instead of higher idea?

[Tim]

is the guitar amp up on a stand? is it kicked back on legs at an angle? What about the bass amp, is it just 1 15" or is it a 4x10" or some combination of the two?

[Tall Adam]

guitar amp is a marshall cab and head (standard 4X12 cab) not kicked back or on a stand (aka sitting on floor)

bass cabs (not sure on amp) if i remember correctly were a 2X15 cab lying on its side with another one (or maybe a 2X12) standing vertically ontop of it. kinda like 2 rectangles, 1 the wide way on the floor, the other the long way ontop of it.

there is actually probably even less space between the guitar amp and bass drum than show in the diagram, id say it was maybe 6" tops. no space for bass frequencies to get past that wall of noise between the bass drum and the guitar amp.

hope that helps...

[Simp-Dawg]

can you hang from the ceiling?

[Tall Adam]

heres the 2 cunnundrums (sp) with that: there are only 2 objects on the ceiling which would be mountable. 1 is a set of four track lights, i doubt mgmt at the bar would be too happy if i ran from those. 2 is a steel beam about half way back in the bar. its centered well (or as well as it can be in a weird space like that) but wayne really wants these recordings clean and im afraid if i tried to mount from it I would get people chattering and cup noise from the bar and thus ruin his intent (sale of these sets). so... to simply answer, no there isnt really a ceiling option, its pretty much what you see in the diagram....

[Tall Adam]

one last bump before the show tonight (i leave at 9). currently i plan to run omni's, either AB spaced about 1 foot, or NOS style. (but im also considering cards, ORTF) either way, i plan to run at about 5' angled downwards slightly.

[Tim]

take some pictures tonight and post them

[Tall Adam]

will do, ill borrow the GF's digi if she lets me

[coop]

try to convince the band to move the bass cabinet,  it wouldn't hurt to try it.
      coop

[Tall Adam]

well they did w/o any of my convincing. bass cab was diagonally behind the drummer. (cab is a 2X15 and a 1X12 or 15)

i ran NOS style omnis first set, and ORTF second, both around 4.5', angled down. i have a guess that ortf will sound better, but havent listened yet. bass player cranked it a bit (infact the first track of set 1 was too bass heavy imo)

thanks for all the help guys. +ts, pictures, and samples to come tommorow, now though, bed

[Tall Adam]

pictures from last night. still havent listened so i have yet to know which i like better.

[Evil Taper]

What about adding another mic or 2 to the mix set up closer to the bass cab?  Maybe a spacial mix of 4 mics 1 near each player?

[Chanher]

What about adding another mic or 2 to the mix set up closer to the bass cab?  Maybe a spacial mix of 4 mics 1 near each player?

exactly what I was thinking. I have been meaning to try one of my sm57's into the the rca input of my ua-5 for this very purpose. leegeddy can make you some sick xlr > rca 20 footers, sm57's can be had for <$100 on ebay. radio shack has the tiny desktop mic stands that are perfect for a cab on the floor. run the 57 directly infront of the cab. get some cheap isolating headphones (see retail forum) to adjust the mix and you are ready to make some sick recordings.

if you don't feel like dropping cash for one gig then maybe you could just take the bass players line out of his amp and run it into the ua-5 rca in. I would still recommend isolating headphones, I've attempted many a mix with regular phones and it was so hard mixing virtually right next to where the band was playing.

+t for going to extra lengths to help out a band.

[Tall Adam]

i have an sm57 and the cables to do it quite easily actually...and somewhat isolating headphones...so i may try this this week. but i think the bass has improved (and certainly will w/ my 391s which are 20-20k, not 40-20k)

i could run sm57 > xlr to 1/4 > rca adapter > rca splitter >r/l ua5 back. not the slickest combo, but would work w/o much lost signal.


all that said...wayne wants to meet me in the city to play me some of the old tapes cuz hes not satisfied with mine  im sorry, but C4s arent gonna sound like schoeps (what the previous taper used) no matter what. hopefully hell like the 391s more.

[Chanher]

I've always liked the saying that a crappy rig in the right location will sound better than a great rig in a crappy location. if you're able to dial in the mix just right, I predict you will have some smokin recordings whether you're using c4's, 390's, or shoepes.

If you're gonna have more than one gig with these guys, I would experiment a little. After trying cards, try some spaced omni's, maybe that will help with having "too much stereo seperation" as Wayne said. there's no phase issues with omni's, but maybe try to get one kinda close to drums and the other kinda close to guitar amp. I'm outta my league here with this, so if someone has better omni suggestions that would work with the strange stage setup please chime in.

[Tall Adam]

did some omni stuff, spaced NOS style, didnt love it. a little too dull and lacking the crispness of the cards that i like (though in general i like the C4 omnis) i just keep on keepin on, he has no intention of canning me for this gig that i know of, and im getting paid either way, so i feel free to experiment

[Chanher]

nice! well keep up the good work...

[mmmatt]

Hey Adam,
Congrats on the gig.  Couple of things that were already said here are good advice.  Omni's will give you much more bass. As for cards, X/Y tightens the bass because it is colecting it from a single point (caps are located in the same plane) where as most other configs (like ortf, nos, din) are collecting it from 2 differents spots and the delay between the two points is percieved as more bass.   Bass resonancies are stronger the lower you go (or closer you get to any reflectable surface (wall ceiling, floor), but the original bass frequencies are omnidirectional so the only way to improve bass responce other than diferent mics would be to increase the volume of the source, or to get closer to it.  Keep in mind there are more frequencies coming from a bass guitar than bass. 
     Going to a mic that goes from 40HZ to 20 won't get you squat, and I have used the c-4 omni's quite a bit.  Believe me they go well below 40HZ... I would stick with the c-4 omni's and try to spread them 4-6ft.  Point one at the drum set and one in the general direction of the guitar amp but try to keep them parallel to one another and about 5 or 6 feet from the sound source if possible. 
     Don't be affraid of a little post work.  If you are in the same venue each time it would be a simple procedure that you could follow each time with very little adjustment.  Compression will be the key to ballance out the image a bit.  2 to 1 with a 20db threshold, normalize to -0- before the compression and normalize again to wherever you want it after the compression (I use -0.02 typically).  I use wavelab and it's compressor works great.  I also use a "puncher" after I compress sometimes.  The puncher in wavelab does just what it sounds like it does.  It takes the peak levels of the recording and adds subfrequencies to bring things more upfront.  It's like having a really ugly, lumpy-ass cake, and adding a smooth layer of frosting to make it pretty.  PM me if you want me play with one of your files for you.  You shouldn't have any problems with either the c-4 card's or 391's in x/y.  That is my preference for stage micing with cards.  I like the highs of the c-4's much better so I would personally just stick with thoes if you are using cards also.

Matt

[Tall Adam]

thanks for the input matt.

unfortunately due to space, spread omnis is just out of the question. im already enough of an imposition with the Cards XY. i really just wasnt happy with the omnis in this situation. they didnt sound right to me. not crisp enough, too much "roundness" for lack of a better term (though ive loved them in other spots.)

unfortunately the C4s gotta go (or the 391s, but seeing how theyre the new guys, ill keep them for a while before i sell them)...oh sluttiness...

all that said. i honestly think that wayne just grew very accoustomed to the schoeps sound, and now is disappointed by a different mic (and lower quality pre).

and with regards to post work...its out of the question really. i only have ~30 min to burn 1st set to CD (plenty of time) but not enough for me to start messing with post. whats more, when the shows end at 1...i just wanna get the hell home. i dont care if the tapes arent amazing, so long as i get my money.  ive offered to do post at home, and then give wayne discs, but he wants 2 audio cds, everynight (not sure how the system worked before when it was dats and transfers were involved.) i dont even track or do fades, just 2 1 hour 16/44.1 wavs, burnt to cd. then i go home.

thanks for the input though. +T
-adam

[mmmatt]

I'm surprised he wouldn't want you to do any post... seems strange.  +T backatcha, and good luck!

Matt

[sml42]

unfortunately due to space, spread omnis is just out of the question.

Hi Adam,

Have you checked out the "spaced omnis vs. jecklin disc" thread here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=800.0 ? It's quite a long thread, but well worth reading.

I ran my first on-stage recording last night, and this (mini j-disc) was something I intended to build and use for the gig... sadly I couldn't get my act together in time so I ended up running split omnis (dpa4060) with pretty good results. At some point in the near future I'll definately be trying the mini j-disc idea.

best regards,
stephen