Author Topic: Cardioids>iRiver H320 with no preamp between (I'm in a temporary pinch)? (Read 6160 times)

greatape · « **on:** October 03, 2007, 08:51:57 AM »

I'm having some issues with my preamp but next week I need to record two wonderful shows. My preamp has only one working channel and I don't have enough time to get it fixed. This is my choice:

1. Record one channel through my cardioids>preamp>iriver and double the left track. I did this the night my preamp starting acting up and it sounded good, but it wasn't stereo of course.

or

2. Plug my cardioids directly into the iriver H320 line input, with no preamp between.

I guess I have a third option if somebody in Chicago can loan me a low profile preamp on Oct 12 and somebody in Bloomington, IN can loan me any size preamp on Oct. 14.

stantheman1976 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 03, 2007, 08:57:45 AM »

The iRiver provides a small amount of plug in power. You can use the mics without an external preamp and use the gain on your iRiver. If you have a battery box you can still potentially pull a very nice recording using the iRiver gain. It's not as clean in the higher settings as an external preamp but it will do in a pinch.

Or use the one good channel and dupe it. There's really nothing wrong with that unless you are super picky about needing two separate channel.

Arni99 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 03, 2007, 09:46:59 AM »

I´d use the mics plugged into the line-in of the iriver which provides about 3V plugin power I guess.
Set l+r gain in rockbox to 10-15db for loud shows and 20-24dB for silent shows and let saftey-clip do the rest(lowering in case levels were set to high manually).

bugg100 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 03, 2007, 03:18:38 PM »

Which mics? That could make all the difference as some mics don't play well with only 3 volt put out by the recorder... Also the source material will have an effect on this as well.

Joe

greatape · « **Reply #4 on:** October 03, 2007, 04:18:33 PM »

They're Church Audio cardioids. The bands will be loud. Serj Tankian, Tom Morello, and Dead Kenny G's. Actually, Dead Kenny G's will be very dynamic. Some of it will probably be quiet.

I really appreciate the help.

Church-Audio · « **Reply #5 on:** October 03, 2007, 04:33:27 PM »

Quote from: greatape on October 03, 2007, 04:18:33 PM

They're Church Audio cardioids. The bands will be loud. Serj Tankian, Tom Morello, and Dead Kenny G's.

I really appreciate the help.

The mics will work just fine with your iriver with out a preamp the noise floor will be higher but thats about it.

Chris

greatape · « **Reply #6 on:** October 03, 2007, 04:44:05 PM »

Thanks Chris. I was sending you a PM at the same time you replied to this.

Quote from: Church-Audio on October 03, 2007, 04:33:27 PM

Quote from: greatape on October 03, 2007, 04:18:33 PM
They're Church Audio cardioids. The bands will be loud. Serj Tankian, Tom Morello, and Dead Kenny G's.

I really appreciate the help.

The mics will work just fine with your iriver with out a preamp the noise floor will be higher but thats about it.

Chris

bugg100 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 03, 2007, 05:20:44 PM »

My girlfriend will want us to catch the Serj show in Nashville... If he's there, seems like a it is up in the air for Nashville, The Nightwatchmen for sure, question on Serj's tour starting there or next day in Chicago. let us know how it turns out, please.

I'll be out tonight in a loud club setting, if you like, i can run CA omni's into an iRiver. Let me know, otherwise I'll be running a 9100 pre.

Joe

p.s. Thanks for the heads up on the show!

greatape · « **Reply #8 on:** October 03, 2007, 09:35:49 PM »

Quote from: bugg100 on October 03, 2007, 05:20:44 PM

My girlfriend will want us to catch the Serj show in Nashville... If he's there, seems like a it is up in the air for Nashville, The Nightwatchmen for sure, question on Serj's tour starting there or next day in Chicago. let us know how it turns out, please.

I'll be out tonight in a loud club setting, if you like, i can run CA omni's into an iRiver. Let me know, otherwise I'll be running a 9100 pre.

Joe

p.s. Thanks for the heads up on the show!

Where did you hear about a Nashvllle show? I've been hoping for one. If there is one announced I'm selling my Chicago tickets and going there instead.

Don't worry about testing without the preamp. I'm going to try some test recording with my stereo this weekend and see how it goes.

69mako · « **Reply #9 on:** October 04, 2007, 02:12:36 AM »

PM sent. i have a battery box you can borrow.

Mako

bugg100 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 04, 2007, 02:32:10 AM »

Excellent! Great offer.....

danzz1234 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 05, 2007, 06:17:12 PM »

http://www.sendspace.com/file/eepfvz

Church Audio Cards > H320

I had problems in my first 'real' recording, probably my 9v was with some kind of problem, I wasn't getting any signal so I went to mics > iriver directly.

Check the results. REALLY loud heavy metal band.

greatape · « **Reply #12 on:** October 09, 2007, 10:54:44 AM »

Sounds great to me. This makes me feel a lot better.
Thanks!

Quote from: danzz1234 on October 05, 2007, 06:17:12 PM

http://www.sendspace.com/file/eepfvz

Church Audio Cards > H320

I had problems in my first 'real' recording, probably my 9v was with some kind of problem, I wasn't getting any signal so I went to mics > iriver directly.

Check the results. REALLY loud heavy metal band.

greatape · « **Reply #13 on:** October 16, 2007, 02:29:29 PM »

Here's a follow up on my results without a preamp or battery box.

Nightwatchman sounds great. It was just Tom Morello on acoustic guitar, not very loud.
Serj Tankian and the FCC was much louder. It totally distorted even though my levels looked fine. It's a real shame since I was also able to run video of their first show ever.

Sunday night I recorded Critters Trio (Dead Kenny G's) with only the left channel of my preamp. They were very loud, but at times were very quiet. It's probably the best recording I've done. With the small, quiet crowd, this could almost be mistaken for a soundboard. I had perfect recording spot so if I could've got this in stereo I could have died a happy taper.

danzz1234 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 16, 2007, 04:58:08 PM »

Quote from: greatape on October 16, 2007, 02:29:29 PM

It totally distorted even though my levels looked fine.

Wich mics you used?
Funny thing that 'it totally distorted', as I ran CA cards > H320 directly and got decent results at a VERY loud (actually I can't think of many bands that would me much louder than that) show.

H320 levels at +15dB.

Final sample:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/rmh61i

Cheers

greatape · « **Reply #15 on:** October 16, 2007, 06:36:49 PM »

I used my Church Audio cards. They're not the Stc-11's like you have, I think. The cards that come with the STC-9000 and mic package. I don't remember for sure but I think I had the gain set at about 15 or 16. The only other difference is that during the Morello set I had them clipped to my jeans with my knee propped up so they had good line of sight. Before the Serj set I found a piece of tape on the front of the balcony and created what I thought was a nifty little T-mount. Maybe I was too close to the concrete ledge and got some kind of weird reflections?

Church-Audio · « **Reply #16 on:** October 16, 2007, 07:02:06 PM »

Quote from: greatape on October 16, 2007, 06:36:49 PM

I used my Church Audio cards. They're not the Stc-11's like you have, I think. The cards that come with the STC-9000 and mic package. I don't remember for sure but I think I had the gain set at about 15 or 16. The only other difference is that during the Morello set I had them clipped to my jeans with my knee propped up so they had good line of sight. Before the Serj set I found a piece of tape on the front of the balcony and created what I thought was a nifty little T-mount. Maybe I was too close to the concrete ledge and got some kind of weird reflections?

All of my cards are st-11 I dont make any other cardioid mics.. Since day one the design of my cardioid mics remains unchanged.

Chris

greatape · « **Reply #17 on:** October 16, 2007, 07:15:46 PM »

Quote from: Church-Audio on October 16, 2007, 07:02:06 PM

Quote from: greatape on October 16, 2007, 06:36:49 PM
I used my Church Audio cards. They're not the Stc-11's like you have, I think. The cards that come with the STC-9000 and mic package. I don't remember for sure but I think I had the gain set at about 15 or 16. The only other difference is that during the Morello set I had them clipped to my jeans with my knee propped up so they had good line of sight. Before the Serj set I found a piece of tape on the front of the balcony and created what I thought was a nifty little T-mount. Maybe I was too close to the concrete ledge and got some kind of weird reflections?

All of my cards are st-11 I dont make any other cardioid mics.. Since day one the design of my cardioid mics remains unchanged.

Chris

Cool. I always wondered about that but never got around to asking you.

bugg100 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 16, 2007, 07:15:59 PM »

HRTF or shoulder level is the way to go....... PM me for more explicit instruction. Your girlfriend and Afroman will thank you. His foolish manager, on the other hand, doesn't need to know.

Did you have Safety Clip set on your iRiver for the Serge & FCC show?

Don't sweat only having mono recording for the Dead Kenny G's. Only way Phil Spector would have it anyhow.

Joe

greatape · « **Reply #19 on:** October 16, 2007, 10:18:02 PM »

When I remember, I turn safety clip off. I don't really like computers thinking for me. It always defaults to "on". I just fired up my iRiver and noticed that as I turn my levels up, safety clip goes down. I never paid attention to that before. At 16 db of gain, safety clip moves to 32 db. What does that really mean and could that have played a role in my poor recording? I thought safety clip would just lower my gain if it detected clipping.

bugg100 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 16, 2007, 10:42:58 PM »

48dB is the max gain for the internal pre. Saftey Clip levels that you see changing vs your raising the gain level is the difference to that max. It actually reflects that figure for all levels of AGC in Rockbox. But as we all know, Saftey Clip NEVER raises gain, so no worries there.

I set Rockbox do that the max gain that can be set is+20dB. +24dB is said to be the last analog step in the pre, then digitally stepped up. That also changes the relation of the above numbers. All this helps in low profile situations. It still up to you to ride the fader up.

Safety Clip would not add to the distortion you experienced. That was either mic placement ( doubtful ), or bass levels. The fact that someone else taped a loud PA without battery box sucessfully doesn't mean that the PA you sat in front of didn't have higher bass response than the samples. The last arena show I sat through ( Alice In Chains, Velvet Revolver ) had HORRIBLE PA bass.....

Why not post an mp3 sample of your pull. Maybe that will show further clues as to the cause of your distortion.

danzz1234 · « **Reply #21 on:** October 16, 2007, 11:03:22 PM »

Quote from: bugg100 on October 16, 2007, 10:42:58 PM

The fact that someone else taped a loud PA without battery box sucessfully doesn't mean that the PA you sat in front of didn't have higher bass response than the samples.

Of course it doesnt necessarily mean that, but I just thought it was strange that it was 'totally distorted' and not just 'some kind of distorded', assuming that we used the same mics, recorders and levels.

I wasn't that close from the stacks, so maybe it was proximity what influenced more + fucked PA or something.

bugg100 · « **Reply #22 on:** October 16, 2007, 11:05:26 PM »

or fucked soundguy.... "more cowbell" syndrome

greatape · « **Reply #23 on:** October 18, 2007, 10:05:02 AM »

Here is a very short sample wav file (I'm bandwidth challenged):

http://www.sendspace.com/file/2ccdoz

It sounded great in person so I don't think I can blame it on the sound guy.

bugg100 · « **Reply #24 on:** October 19, 2007, 12:32:22 AM »

Yeah, it sounds like too much low end with out enough bias voltage. But having said that, you could play with a high pass freq filter, which would roll some of the bass off and still have a more listenable tape than much of what is shared on a regular basis.....