Topic: recording a live album of solo guitar? help!!

[bhakti]

hey guys

i've been asked to record one of my favourite artists on his next tour who is a solo guitarist [and a variety of acoustic instruments] and wanted to ask the kind folk of TS.com for suggestions.

i am a bit limited with the gear i have but can still get very decent results based on previous experience. i basically have 4 channels which includes 2 XLR in's on my M-Audio Firewire 410 soundcard [which is great i think] and two channels on the Edirol R-09. i'm thinking i'll take a mono feed off the sound desk into the R-09 [for a desk feed - which i'm not too stressed about cos, we'll probably use very little in the final mix] and take the other channel on the Edirol for a audience recording [basically for audience applause and a bit of ambience] with my church audio mics and mic pre [the stereo mics will have to go down to a mono signal as i only have one spare channel on the r-09]. i then plan to use my oktava mk-012 [using a cardiod pattern???] on the neck of the guitar on stage and the loan my brothers rode mic for the body, both sent to the m-audio card straight to HD using cubase.

and i hope to land up with a smoking tape from these 4 sources. i also have an ol' MD for another 2 channels, but then i start to depreciate the quality considerable in my books as its not a Hi-MD recorder. but could use it for the desk feed or ambience mics???

anyway, i know this is long, but any suggestions are welcome. maybe i've got the right idea but maybe i don't. you can all see what i have gear wise and make suggestions.

thanks in advance. merry taping. 

bhakti

[brownm84]

I would use the MD for audience and use your Church Audio mics to try and capture the show as a whole on the R-09.  That way you can avoid the often disappointing results of mixing on the fly vs. mixing in post. Its always best to have each source be the best it can be INDEPENDENTLY of your other sources.  Everything can be mixed in post to achieve the most favorable mix given the strength of each independent source. Good luck!

[TNJazz]

I'd skip the MD and the R-09 and do everything through the 410 at 24/44.1, assuming your computer is fast enough.

You didn't mention vocals, so I'm assuming it's solo guitar/instrument.

I'd put one mic on the guitar, probably around the 12th fret (Oktava).  I'd use the other Oktava (assuming you have a pair) for an ambient mic (or use the two Church mics and pre, and bump them down to a single channel).  Then I'd take the 2 channel board feed into the line inputs.  Try to use either direct outs or an aux that will be pre-fader, pre-EQ.  That will give you more control in post.

I would absolutely not worry about trying to sync multiple sources.  It's not worth the effort.  Keep it simple.

[Roving Sign]

I would use the MD for audience and use your Church Audio mics to try and capture the show as a whole on the R-09.  That way you can avoid the often disappointing results of mixing on the fly vs. mixing in post. Its always best to have each source be the best it can be INDEPENDENTLY of your other sources.  Everything can be mixed in post to achieve the most favorable mix given the strength of each independent source. Good luck!

Not always true - Im doing some recording at a local theater...and I have one set of mics set up very far in the back of the room - not a spot you would pick to make a good recording...but it provides the ambience and "slop" that I need to give the dry SBD feed a little life.

Unless you have a 4 channel recorder of some sort - I would reccommend getting a mixer and doing this on the fly...You wont have to resort to summing your Church mics...(ie you can use your gear more effectively.) - If you know the artist and will be recording multiple gigs - it shouldnt be to hard to come up with a little formula.

Recording acoustic instruments in the fashion you describe...with a PA mix going, isnt going to work too well...IMO

Does he mic the instruments for the stage mix...or does he go direct?

Mixing non-clock synced sources in post is too time consuming...IMO.

[Church-Audio]

I would do aboard feed + room mics.. For sure... you really need a 4 ch recorder for this IMO.

[TNJazz]

I would do aboard feed + room mics.. For sure... you really need a 4 ch recorder for this IMO.

He has a 410, so that should work just fine.  2 mic pres and 2 line inputs.

[boyacrobat]

independant rec
not pc

latency reason
its there

even .1 millisecond unacceptable
import them in to an editor
from ext rec


g

[boojum]

I would absolutely not worry about trying to sync multiple sources.  It's not worth the effort.  Keep it simple.

This is so true.  You could waste hours on just synching.

[bhakti]

wow! thanks for all the feedback... feel i have a better idea already....

to answer a few questions [and maybe to ask a few more], the FireWire 410 only has 2 XLR in's... the other two in's are SPDIF which I don't have cables or any understanding of... felt a bit cheated when i bought it cos I can only use two sources at a time and not 4 as i thought [410 = 4 in's 10 outs!!!]... , anyway, so to capture more than 2 channels of audio i plan to use the Edirol as well...

i can set the levels on the R-09 for both the desk feed and the Church Audio mics seperately, but just going into one stereo mini-jack... not really mixing on the fly at all, but just capturing the SBD and the ambience of the room with the CA mics on seperate channels [left & right]....

then with the FireWire card, I'll use one Oktava [don't own a stereo pair] and one Rode shotgon mic on stage with the guitar... perhaps one mic on stage is enough...? unfortunately he uses a pickup so there will be PA bleed into the mics onstage, but I will do my best to postion both the house speakers and the mic to avoid too much of the house mix into the mics on stage.... perhaps i can persuade him to play through a mic, although its unlikely... there will be no vocals...

re: synching... in soundforge, i can stretch the other file to the exact size of the edirol files... last time i did a seperate recording with both the edirol and the firewire 410, the times were pretty much spot on i think... shouldn't be too much of a problem? 

essentially i do have a 4 channel recorder to play with already... two condensor's onstage [which should give a bit of room as well] and a SBD/AUD matrix... plan to record 24bit / 44.1kHz...?

any other suggestions about my setup and plan are very welcome...? still have a week or so before the show... will only be able to record one show, so its a one off really...

[Roving Sign]

How about this...

Get yourself an SPDIF optical cable...run the Church mics on the R9 as a stereo pair - take the digital out of the R9 to the 410 via your new optical cable...take the board feed on the 410 on the XLRs - now you will likely have 4 mixable channels...(as well as a stereo backup recording on the R9)

Now - if the board feed is mono - use only one of the XLRs - - and one of your other mics on the other...

I would absolutley NOT use the shotgun...

[Roving Sign]

Ok reading your previous post a little more carefully -

I think it's GOOD that he is using a pickup...

Take the mono board feed on channel 1 - use 1/4 inputs on the back

Put the Octava (onstage as you decribe) on channel 2 via XLR

I would put the Church set out in the room...feed the 410 the optical output from the R9

In this setup, the R9 is really functioning as a Analog > Digital converter - the fact that it also records just provides you with a solid backup in the event of a disaster. I would check in advance to make sure you can get the 410 to lock on to the R9s digital output.

You should get a nice solid sound from his pickup, and maybe some tone from the octava...

Once in post, clone both mono signals so you have a left and right. Use the Church set to add a little pluck and stereo ambience. I would think most of your sound would come from the board + octava and probably just a little of the Church mics...

As for syncing - Using the 410 for to capture all 4 channels should produce 4 channels that are clock-synced - so no stretching will be needed - they will align perfectly.

You can probably get the right SPDIF cable at Wal-Mart...or Circuit city or similar...you want one with a square toslink connector on one end and a 1/8 mini on the other. (this looks just like any 1/8 plug except made of plastic) Some cables have squares on both ends and come with an adapter...these generally work - but we try to avoid them.

[TNJazz]

I would agree with Roving Sign's post above.

I didn't realize the M-Audio 410 is actually only 2/8 simultaneous.  That's crap of the highest order, IMO.  Most devices on the market that are touted with 4 inputs or more allow them all to be used together.

Feeding the optical channels with the R-09 will work nicely though, and give you 4 channels of synchronized audio to work with in post.

[bhakti]

thanks again roving sign and to everyone...

i like the idea about using the SPDIF in's and prefer to have everything coming in on the soundcard... still keen on having two mics on the guitar though... what about taking a mono SBD [desk] and the mono AUD [CA mics] feed on the edirol [on either channel] and sending that in via the SPDIF in and using two mics on the XLR in's on the 410? that way i have two sources of the guitar up close...

please could you give me the low down on the SPDIF some more? is it like a mini jack or a RCA [sorry don't have the soundcard with me here]...?

thanks again... what do you think about this setup idea though?