Topic: Soundboard question

[Belexes]

Last Friday I recorded from a Yamaha PMD5 digital board > Stereo XLR'S to 1/8" > R-09.  It came out fine, but I was given the option to run the fader as I pleased.  This was in a theater and I saw the house mains peaking at -10 to -20 dB, but I was peaking at -40.  I decided just to live with what I was given, even though I could have run it hotter, but I was worried about a brickwall type situation.

Is there any way to know what to set the board feed at?  Should I set the R-09 at "unity" and just adjust the levels from the fader?

The recording turned out fine, but that was probably luck more than anything.

[Church-Audio]

Last Friday I recorded from a Yamaha PMD5 digital board > Stereo XLR'S to 1/8" > R-09.  It came out fine, but I was given the option to run the fader as I pleased.  This was in a theater and I saw the house mains peaking at -10 to -20 dB, but I was peaking at -40.  I decided just to live with what I was given, even though I could have run it hotter, but I was worried about a brickwall type situation.

Is there any way to know what to set the board feed at?  Should I set the R-09 at "unity" and just adjust the levels from the fader?

The recording turned out fine, but that was probably luck more than anything.

When your taking audio out of a console its always better to leave lots of headroom because you dont know if the sound engineer is going to need more level and where he is going to get the extra level he needs. As a rule I always run my left and right at 0db and I always pfl the outputs to my press feed or tapers and give them around -20 db so if you have the ability to ask for a level asking for -20 db or so on the meter is always a good place to be. -20 db gives you plenty of headroom... and allows for bands that get hyper when they first get on.. Most bands when they do sound check they are at one level and when they step out on stage they are often 10 db louder at least in my experience.. I always give a band a lot of headroom on my console for that reason.

[rokpunk]

He didn't offer you the AES out of the 5D?
My normal signal flow on my rig is M7CL->AES output->722.
Works great, never clip since i'd have to be clipping the board to clip the recording.


modified: just realized r09 doesn't have digi in.

[Belexes]

No digi-in with the R-09, but I think I could use my old M1 DAT to get a digi feed from the board? I do have an Oade 7 pin passive.

And to Chris, thanks for the advice.  I'll ask for about -20 dB next time and see how the results are.  I think the level I was running on my R-09 was "20" and that's well over unity.

[rokpunk]

No digi-in with the R-09, but I think I could use my old M1 DAT to get a digi feed from the board? I do have an Oade 7 pin passive.

you might need to convert the AES down to S/PDIF, but yes, it should work.

[Belexes]

So an AES stereo cable to S/PDIF? Does such a cable exist or would this be custom? Thanks for the help.

[Tim]

So an AES stereo cable to S/PDIF? Does such a cable exist or would this be custom? Thanks for the help.

canare makes an adapter that you can order that will take an AES down to SPDIF.

[Belexes]

So an AES stereo cable to S/PDIF? Does such a cable exist or would this be custom? Thanks for the help.

canare makes an adapter that you can order that will take an AES down to SPDIF.

Thanks Tim. I'll have to do some hunting online for that. Canare's site wasn't too much help:

http://www.canare.com/index.cfm?objectid=ED7D5419-3048-7098-AFE37EAA392D9145

[Tim]

here it is, http://www.thebroadcastshop.com/sales/detail.asp?partno=BCJ-XJ-A10TR&aid=froogle

you'll need a bnc to rca adapter as well

[Church-Audio]

No digi-in with the R-09, but I think I could use my old M1 DAT to get a digi feed from the board? I do have an Oade 7 pin passive.

And to Chris, thanks for the advice.  I'll ask for about -20 dB next time and see how the results are.  I think the level I was running on my R-09 was "20" and that's well over unity.

RP is right though if you can get digital that is the way to go

[Belexes]

Thanks much.  I am going to be recording this band a lot, so it'll be worth it to get the gear/run digital.

[fey-metallica]

You say the recording came out just fine. I have no idea what type of band you taped, but with stereo XLR, don't you have guitars too low in the mix and the vocals and drumkick a bit too high? That usually is how the soundboard is set to get the best sound in the venue (at a metal gig).
It doesn't matter much wether I record with XLR/Jack or just minidisc straight into the soundboard, but that seems to be the problem over and over. Somebody has any experience in handling this?

[intpseeker]

You say the recording came out just fine. I have no idea what type of band you taped, but with stereo XLR, don't you have guitars too low in the mix and the vocals and drumkick a bit too high? That usually is how the soundboard is set to get the best sound in the venue (at a metal gig).
It doesn't matter much wether I record with XLR/Jack or just minidisc straight into the soundboard, but that seems to be the problem over and over. Somebody has any experience in handling this?

I was offered a soundboard feed at the New Riders the other night, but would have had to go xlr in because of the mod on the pmd660, and I decided to just go with my 451's instead.

The guy who took the feed used his Korg 1000 and sent me one of the songs. When I compare it to mine the difference is stark, and not just because of the huge difference in amount of info recorded by the two units.

We, the audience, didn't get a lot of the peddle steel nor the lead vocals, and that's what my mics reflect. On the other hand, his sound board of the song had great vocals and steel , and overall a pretty perfect mix to my ear.

I was DC just to the left of the board, so my simplistic question is how come we didn't hear what the board mix heard? As fey notes above, what you hear is not what you get.

[datbrad]

I recorded NRPS in Richmond Tuesday night off the SBD, mostly out of laziness. I had my mic rig, and so did Lynnz, and we almost pulled out and went for it FOB, but the ease of not guarding a stand won us over that night.

Wish we had gone with our instincts and ran mics, because the SBD, while crystal clear, has the vocals punched up far too loudly compared to the instruments. It's simple, the backline amps pushed out enough gain from the stage that they were not pulled into the PA as much as the vocals. Also, no compression was used on the vocals, and that would have tamed them in the SBD feed. 

With acoustic acts in clubs, SBDs are usually fine because there is no backline, so everything has to run through the PA, making the SBD mix very nice and even usually. I think I will stick to the SBD when able to in those acoustic situations, but will try and always go with mics for full electric bands in clubs. This is a lesson I already learned many years ago, but I ignored it like a fool.

I wonder if there is anything I could do to improve the mix in post? I may try compression, but I don't want that breathing effect where the instruments are made louder when there are no vocals, and when the vocals start the instruments fall into the background. Any advice?

[Belexes]

You say the recording came out just fine. I have no idea what type of band you taped, but with stereo XLR, don't you have guitars too low in the mix and the vocals and drumkick a bit too high? That usually is how the soundboard is set to get the best sound in the venue (at a metal gig).
It doesn't matter much wether I record with XLR/Jack or just minidisc straight into the soundboard, but that seems to be the problem over and over. Somebody has any experience in handling this?

I don't like SBD feeds in small clubs. They are running in mono, have a lot of stage volume, and as someone stated above the vocals are way up in the mix.

I was recording a classic rock band with a 30+ piece symphony in a 2000 seat theater.  The larger the venue, the better the SBD, or at least it seems to be the case.  Vocals are a little high in the mix, but all the other instruments are well represented, including a lead violinist.

I had no fears because I had a friend stealthing with his DAT.  It'll be cool to compare what he was getting from his seat versus my pull from the board.

[Tim]

You say the recording came out just fine. I have no idea what type of band you taped, but with stereo XLR, don't you have guitars too low in the mix and the vocals and drumkick a bit too high? That usually is how the soundboard is set to get the best sound in the venue (at a metal gig).
It doesn't matter much wether I record with XLR/Jack or just minidisc straight into the soundboard, but that seems to be the problem over and over. Somebody has any experience in handling this?

I don't like SBD feeds in small clubs. They are running in mono, have a lot of stage volume, and as someone stated above the vocals are way up in the mix.

I was recording a classic rock band with a 30+ piece symphony in a 2000 seat theater.  The larger the venue, the better the SBD, or at least it seems to be the case.

this is true. Think of the job of the PA as that of "Sound reinforcement".

In a small club you're going to get vocals and drums heavy in the mix as these are what need to be "reinforced" over the stage volume of loud guitar amps.

In a bigger venue stage volume will not carry as far so all instruments and vocals will be present in the mix.

FWIW - in small clubs, if everything is mic'd you may be able to grab an open AUX feed from the board and make your own mix just for the tape. You need a Pre-fader AUX send so your mix isn't affected by the engineers moving of the faders. If you know the band well enough to arrive at soundcheck and get patched in this is a good way to grab a great board feed in a small club. Let the engineer do his job and then have the band play a song or two for you to mix the tape feed.

I did this a LOT when I was first taping analog. I got to know the bands and the engineer at my local club really well this way. It also taught me how to put together a mix before I ever had to think about eq, compression etc. It gave me a good foundation to start doing FOH work and eventually I was a house engineer at that same club.

[fey-metallica]

In a small club you're going to get vocals and drums heavy in the mix as these are what need to be "reinforced" over the stage volume of loud guitar amps.

In a bigger venue stage volume will not carry as far so all instruments and vocals will be present in the mix.

FWIW - in small clubs, if everything is mic'd you may be able to grab an open AUX feed from the board and make your own mix just for the tape. You need a Pre-fader AUX send so your mix isn't affected by the engineers moving of the faders. If you know the band well enough to arrive at soundcheck and get patched in this is a good way to grab a great board feed in a small club. Let the engineer do his job and then have the band play a song or two for you to mix the tape feed.

You are saying I need a pre-fader aux send. This doesn't make a perfect mix all the time if I'm correct? When recording the monitor I would be dependable on the bands preferences, for example when a vocalist only want guitar on the right side that will be highly noticable in the recording as well won't it? Also, for pre-fader aux send I would need jack instead of XLR? I'm not into recording SBD for a long time, I'm just learning as we speak.

[Tim]

If you get an open pre-fader aux send (ie. one not being used for band's monitors) you can make your own mix.

Depends on the mixer, probably need either rca's or a trs 1/4 inch. Someone correct me if I'm wrong

[Church-Audio]

If you get an open pre-fader aux send (ie. one not being used for band's monitors) you can make your own mix.

Depends on the mixer, probably need either rca's or a trs 1/4 inch. Someone correct me if I'm wrong

An aux send is ok if the sound guy is in the ball.. I would ask for a pre fader Aux mix.. That way you get his fader moves in the mix. But this assumes he has the time or the Will to do a discrete mix for you. Its always better in some cases to just take a left and right out of the console. That way you get his "final" product. That in it self is no guarantee of a quality mix but it would be better then a no-mind aux mix from a sound engineer that really does not give a shit about your recording. On the other hand a "super tech" that can wear headphones a dial a mix in quickly for you would be better then any left right mix.

I have always felt good mics are always your most likely source for a good recording. I know when I mix I am not always going to have everything in the mix in proportion because the monitors may be loud and I dont need as much keyboard out front or it might be that the lead guitar is loud off stage so I have him off in the house mix.. This happens all the time in small bar gigs but in large gigs. I usually have everything going thru and the mix from the board is usually spot on. Something to consider when your thinking about getting a board feed. I would ask my self the question is the venue big enough for everything to be going thru the console if the answer is yes then you might end up with a good recording if not maybe your better off with just mics.

Chris

[Tim]

yeah in a big room, take the left and right out. I was talking about bars where the mix is screwy but where you can get to know the engineer well. I had free reign at a few clubs for years, it was great!

[intpseeker]

I recorded NRPS in Richmond Tuesday night off the SBD, mostly out of laziness. I had my mic rig, and so did Lynnz, and we almost pulled out and went for it FOB, but the ease of not guarding a stand won us over that night.
Wish we had gone with our instincts and ran mics, because the SBD, while crystal clear, has the vocals punched up far too loudly compared to the instruments. It's simple, the backline amps pushed out enough gain from the stage that they were not pulled into the PA as much as the vocals. Also, no compression was used on the vocals, and that would have tamed them in the SBD feed.

Skarecrow offered the SB to me in Fall River at the NRPS gig and I declined wanting to play with my 451's. The SB was taken by a good guy with a Korg 1000, and the detail I noticed during the show was that Buddy Cage's  peddle steel and the vocals were a little lost in the audience mix, while they were right up front in the crystal clear SB recording.

So why didn't the audience hear what the soundboard did?