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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: mikycoud on July 12, 2011, 12:50:08 PM
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Hi,
HAs anyone got any expreience going from a Mixpre D (or any other device outputting a AES3 signal) into a PMD661 SPDIF in?
I know some devices accept a AES signal on their SPDIF input without any issue, but I've also heard of fussy ones not locking in to the signal, or misinterpreting the extra 4 bits in the AES signal (clicks and pops)
Any thoughts?
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No experience but I think an adapter exists if that might help...
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Get in touch with Ted!
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=133186.0
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Get in touch with Ted!
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=133186.0
Yeah, he made me a AES>SPDIF cable in anticipation of my getting a MixPre-D... It is a work of art...
Terry
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I'd PM ted, but for slightly different reasons.
He has something that will send AES (his V3) and a 661 so he could actually test it before making you a cable.
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I'd PM ted, but for slightly different reasons.
He has something that will send AES (his V3) and a 661 so he could actually test it before making you a cable.
Agreed, I believe it is not just a matter of getting adapted to the correct style connector but if the deck will actually accept the signal. Be ashamed to pay for a really nice cable that won't work on your gear.
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Thanx all,
I've PM Ted to enquire about his cables and experience with the PMD661 digital input.
Thanx again, and have a good day.
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Get in touch with Ted!
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=133186.0
Yeah, he made me a AES>SPDIF cable in anticipation of my getting a MixPre-D... It is a work of art...
Terry
How are you guys going with your Sound Devices Mix Pre-D / Mix Pre to Marantz PMD661 recorder set ups? What have you found is the best way to preserve the Mix Pre or Mix Pre-D's superior dynamic range and signal to noise ratio? I've bought a mix pre-D and Marantz PMD661 and I'm currently running the mixer from the XLR outs to the XLR ins of the Marantz set to 'Line in'. My concern is that discussions here suggest even using 'line in' on the Marantz, either through the XLR ports or the 'Line in 2' RCA socket, the signal runs through at least one set of pre-amps (and then another if you have the recorder set to 'Mic in'). The Marantz has lower signal to noise ratio and less dynamic range than the Mix Pre-D. Here's a summary of the pro's and cons of the different routing options as far as I can work out from the limited info in the manuals of the two devices, discussions here and experience with my current set up. I love these two devices. I'm just trying to get the best out of using them together. If I can crack it, the combo would be a good low-price alternative to the Sound Devices 702 (as the Mix Pre-D shares the same pre-amps and input circuitry).
Set Up 1) Run 2 x XLR mono cables from the Mix Pre-D's XLR outs to the Marantz's XLR ins, with the mic/line switch set to 'Line' and 'Mic/Line' recording selected in the menu. This is my current setup and it sounds pretty good.
Pros: Strong XLR connectors, hot line level signal seems to be preserved well.
Possible cons: Signal may be running through one set of the Marantz's Pre-amps. These have inferior SNR and DR. It appears to me that these pre-amps are only used to trim and not for gain when the recorder is set to line level in. It appears that setting the gain to max gives you the un-amplified signal. I called Marantz and the tech said he thought that was right but he didn't sound sure. Even if the pre-amp is only attenuating if anything and not adding gain, would it's inferior DR affect the signal, ie compress the dynamic range somehow or with the gain set to maximum on the Marantz' line in are you sending an unadulterated signal to the Marantz's A/D converters? A further con (although nothing major) is I suspect the Marantz's A/D converters wouldn't be as good as the Sound Devices'.
Set Up 2) Run from the Mix Pre-Ds XLR outs to the Marantz's 'Line In 2' via a twin XLR mono to RCA stereo cable.
Pros: I read on this forum that this RCA input may be 14DB more sensitive than the XLR. I can't test it without the cable but I'm guessing this might mean better SNR because of the hotter line level? Does it matter at line level? The signal coming out of the Mix Pre D is so hot anyway. I'm a bit confused about this part. The Sound Devices' levels have massive headroom and are marked from -30 to +20. They start going orange at -4DB. The Marantz's levels go from -60db to 0db. I sync the two recorders by flicking the Tone switch on the Mix Pre-D, sending a 0db, 20Khz tone to the Marantz. I then set that tone to 0DB on the Marantz (at about 8/10 on the Marantz). This means though that a signal at 0DB would be using only half the maximum levels of the Mix Pre-D but would peak out the Marantz.. To allow for any more gain on the Mix Pre-D, I have to trim the Marantz. Seems like a shame to unecessarily add gain (and therefore noise) at the mixer end that is going to be trimmed at the recorder end. Seems to me that the Marantz MUST be adding gain to the line in signal when at 8/10. I just don't know at what point gain kicks in. Does anyone?
Cons: It's been suggested in discussion here that the Line in 2 port routes the same as the mic/line in, ie via the first set of pre-amps in 'line in' mode, so no DR/SNR advantage there. Also, the RCA connection obviously isn't as secure as XLR.
Set Up 3) This one looks really promising. Run a digital out from the Mix Pre-D to the Marantz's digital in. Problem is that the Mix Pre-D uses AES format and the Marantz uses the consumer grade S/PDIF and they're not mutually compatible. There are converter boxes (http://www.hosatech.com/product/0/CDL-313/_/Digital_Audio_Interface%2C_SPDIF_Coax_to_AESEBU), although these look heavy and don't seem to be battery powerable. Alternatively, conversion cables are available, one of Ted's AES to S/PDIF cables (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=133186.0), or alternatives, including adapters to correct for the different impedence, here: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/12214-aes-spdif-adapter.html.
Pros: this should completely bypass all of the Marant'z pre-amps and so should give superior SNR and DR at least at this stage? It would also use the Mix Pre's probably superior A/D converters.
Possible cons:My concern here is that S/PDIF is generally 20 bit with 4 bits preserved for metadata. Some manufacturers use the full 24 bits but the Marantz manual's don't say what the bit rate is. Does anyone know? 4 bits may just be dropped! Also, obviously the RCA connection is not as solid as XLR.
I'd be very interested in your thoughts on the above or what solutions you have found for preserving the superior SNR, DR and A/D converters of the Mix Pre-D when connecting to a Marantz PMD661.
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I won't comment on your many scenarios but I can confirm that the switchable line input on the XLR bypasses the mic preamps, but there is still a gain stage set at the +4 db balanced line standard. I have not heard a recording using the Mixpre-D A/D, but I like the Marantz 661 and 671 A/Ds better than most, and yet if I had a Mixpre-D or a V3, I would probably use it's A/D over the one in the 661, not for sound but for ease only having to adjust gain on one unit.
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Hi,
HAs anyone got any expreience going from a Mixpre D (or any other device outputting a AES3 signal) into a PMD661 SPDIF in?
I know some devices accept a AES signal on their SPDIF input without any issue, but I've also heard of fussy ones not locking in to the signal, or misinterpreting the extra 4 bits in the AES signal (clicks and pops)
Any thoughts?
My $.02
My Apogee Mini-Me has AES and SPDIF outs. I ran the SPDIF RCA to a Marantz PMD671 and MTII at sample rates (24 bit) up to 96K no problems.
I got a DR-680; it would accept the MME SPDIF signal at 24 bit up to 48K but not 96K.
So now I run the MiniMe AES (stubbie connector) to an AES-SPDIF transformer, from the transformer SPDIF RCA to the DR-680 and it locks 100% 24bit 96K.
I use the other (SPDIF) out from the MME to a backup recorder.
I made my cables, using 110 ohm for the AES and 75 ohm for the SPDIF.
I'm just guessing that the Marantz may be more tolerant and accept AES without a transformer, but I didn't try it.
FWIW
Dave
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HVXmania - here's my standard spiel on how to levels on the mixpre-d and 661:
(Also the mixpre-d doesn't use the same circuits as the 7-series. Mixpre uses transformers, 7-series don't.)
The dB scales on each machine represent different and non-equivalent things. On the Marantz the scale shows dB Full Scale Digital, where 0dB = clipping/max level. The Mixpre meters however show dBu, where +22dB = clipping. Therefore you need to adjust the input sensitivity of your 661 so that the tone (1kHz btw, not 20kHz) registers at -22dB on the Marantz. This is the proper gain structure for the two devices.
This way, a signal coming out of the mixpre at max level (+22dBu) will line up with the Marantz's max level (0dB FS).
To find out which has the higher dynamic range (mixpre > digital > 661 or mixpre > analog > 661 line in), connect the least sensitive mic you own or a 150 ohm terminator to the mixpre, wind it's gain control to min, record 15 secs of this on the Marantz in 24bit mode via both connection methods. Open the file in an editor with a good amplitude analysis tool and see which has the lower RMS noise floor.
Then do some blind tests to see what difference there is in the A/D. If they sound the same, as many converters do, go with the one with the lower noise floor. Voila!
Ben
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Here is a much better solution I ran across for this application and made up one of these cables myself using parts on hand. It works clean from MixPre-D AES to Marantz PMD661 S/PDIF at 24/96. I can confirm this cable also works going the AES out of a Apogee MiniMe to S/PDIF in on a PMD 661.
A passive impedance conversion AES to S/PDIF cable can be made using a quality 75 ohm coax video cable (i.e. Belden 1505A, Canare LV-61S or equivalent), and to turn the 110 ohm AES source into a 75 ohm impedance install 237 ohms of resistance across pins 2 and 3 within the cables AES's XLR-F connector with the center conductor of coax to pin 2 and shield to pin 1. Then terminate the other end of the coax with either a 75 ohm BNC or 75 ohm RCA connector to meet your needs.
The 237 ohm resistance in parallel with the 110 ohm AES source converts it to 75 ohm internally in the XLR-F connector and is then 75 ohm impedance matched all the way to the SPDIF termination. I've since purchased a large stock of 237 ohm resistors and hand tested/sorted each using my HP3478A Bench Meter to find the ones that meet the tightest tolerance. My cable utilizes a Neutrik XCC connector which maintains the coaxial shield something that ordinary XLR connectors don't.
I've many requests from TS members to sell these cables from another post I made. If you'd like one please feel free to send me a PM, I'd be glad to make one for you if you're not capable or don't want to make one yourself. There are now several people out there using my DigiGal AES > S/PDIF passive impedance conversion cable. I keep stock on hand for a quick build time and am considering posting in the Retail thread since demand has been fairly steady.
(http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b419/DigiGal_taper/Cables/file-1.jpg) (http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b419/DigiGal_taper/Cables/file.jpg)
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hi,
i'm new on this forum.
can i know the final word about this story?
1.wich cable is best to use for connecting mixpred to marantz 661?
2.does it records in 24bit 96 khz?
3.there are others portable recorders that can work with aes output of mixpred?
thanks
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Old thread but I here's DIY solution I ran accross for this and made up one of these cables myself for grins using parts on hand. Works clean from MixPre-D AES to Marantz PMD661 S/PDIF at 24/96. I can confirm this cable also works going the AES out of a Apogee MiniMe to S/PDIF in on a PMD 661.
A simple AES to SPDIF cable can be made using a quality 75 ohm coax video cable (i.e. Belden 1505A, Canare LV-61S or equivalent), and to turn the 110 ohm AES source into a 75 ohm impedance install 237 ohms of resistance across pins 2 and 3 within the cables AES's XLR-F connector with the center conductor of coax to pin 2 and shield to pin 1. Then terminate the other end of the coax with either a 75 ohm BNC or 75 ohm RCA connector to meet your needs.
The 237 ohm resistance in parallel with the 110 ohm AES source converts it to 75 ohm internally in the XLR-F connector and is then 75 ohm impedance matched all the way to the SPDIF termination. I've since purchased a large stock of 237 ohm resistors and hand tested/sorted each using my HP3478A Bench Meter to find the ones that meet the tightest tolerance.
I used a Neutrik XCC connector for this build but you could use a standard XLR-F connector too, but the XCC connector maintains the coaxial shield.
I've had a few requests from TS members to sell these cables from another post I made. If you'd like one please feel free to send me a PM, I'd be glad to make one for you if you're not capable or don't want to make one yourself.
(http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b419/DigiGal_taper/Cables/file-1.jpg) (http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b419/DigiGal_taper/Cables/file.jpg)
I got mine from Digigal today and it is a piece of art and can hardly wait to give it a try. Even though I have an OCM PMD661 I still want to use the digital out on my MixPre-D.
Thanks again
Digigal
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Hey- hats off to you, DigiGal!
you don't see alot of Neutrik EMC connector stuff going around: well done...
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Hey- hats off to you, DigiGal!
you don't see alot of Neutrik EMC connector stuff going around: well done...
Thanks, I do use the neutrik EMC series connectors on Star Quad cables, however, I'm using their XCC series connector for my AES > S/PDIF passive impedance conversion cable builds. From the outside the EMC and XCC look similar but they are entirely different connectors.
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Hello DigiGal,
I am new here and this is my first post.
I own a Mixpre-D and use it to record directly into the cameras I've used. I also use the Mixpre for voiceovers in favor of various Apogee and Avalon micpres I owned for years.
I will be purchasing a Blackmagic Production Camera soon and believe that having an external recorder will be necessary. Looking for a decent recorder I came across the Marantz PMD 661 and to this post of yours.
You own both devices and build the digital connecting cable between them. If the digital connection sounds cleaner than the XLR analog connections, I am in.
I have tried to PM you about the cable, but I have had no luck. Maybe because I am new here, I don't know. If you have the time, please be kind to contact me.
I would prefer to use only one device on location, but if the Mixpre - D mic pre's are above the Marantz 661 mic pres then two devices will do. You probably also know about the 661 mods. That would simplify it to one recorder. Your opinion counts toward my next purchase, either a 661 modified recorder or the Mixpre-D/661 combo.
I am of course looking for less noise and better sounding mic pres for better options in post. So again, I am not married to the color the Mixpre-D adds. Any good clean sound will do.
Will a Modified Marantz 661 sound better on it's own than a Mixpre - D digitally connected to a Marantz 661? Is the difference significant? You might have the answer from personal experience.
I am not married to Sound Devices. I simply want two really good channels of portable location sound recording without dishing out more than another $700. When I need more, I add a sound guy.
This is an old post. I hope that you get to read it.
Your help is appreciated.
All the best,
Alex
Here is a much better solution I ran across for this application and made up one of these cables myself using parts on hand. It works clean from MixPre-D AES to Marantz PMD661 S/PDIF at 24/96. I can confirm this cable also works going the AES out of a Apogee MiniMe to S/PDIF in on a PMD 661.
A passive impedance conversion AES to S/PDIF cable can be made using a quality 75 ohm coax video cable (i.e. Belden 1505A, Canare LV-61S or equivalent), and to turn the 110 ohm AES source into a 75 ohm impedance install 237 ohms of resistance across pins 2 and 3 within the cables AES's XLR-F connector with the center conductor of coax to pin 2 and shield to pin 1. Then terminate the other end of the coax with either a 75 ohm BNC or 75 ohm RCA connector to meet your needs.
The 237 ohm resistance in parallel with the 110 ohm AES source converts it to 75 ohm internally in the XLR-F connector and is then 75 ohm impedance matched all the way to the SPDIF termination. I've since purchased a large stock of 237 ohm resistors and hand tested/sorted each using my HP3478A Bench Meter to find the ones that meet the tightest tolerance. My cable utilizes a Neutrik XCC connector which maintains the coaxial shield something that ordinary XLR connectors don't.
I've many requests from TS members to sell these cables from another post I made. If you'd like one please feel free to send me a PM, I'd be glad to make one for you if you're not capable or don't want to make one yourself. There are now several people out there using my DigiGal AES > S/PDIF passive impedance conversion cable. I keep stock on hand for a quick build time and am considering posting in the Retail thread since demand has been fairly steady.
(http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b419/DigiGal_taper/Cables/file-1.jpg) (http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b419/DigiGal_taper/Cables/file.jpg)
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I have tried to PM you about the cable, but I have had no luck. Maybe because I am new here, I don't know. If you have the time, please be kind to contact me.
Apologies for the trouble with PMs. Please try again?
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I have an Oade Concert Mod PMD 661 and a Sound Devices MixPre-D with a digital cable made by DigiGal and I think the MixPre-D adds a lot to my recordings so far. The OCM is only for mic in on the PMD661 and I used it for about a year. The MixPre-D has a better headphone amplifier also so I run the PMD back to the MixPre-D.
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Hi all, Looking for DigiGal and can't seem to PM her (brand new account?)
I'm setting up this exact setup and came across her cable! :)
I purchased this one and should test it later this week:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/353774-REG/Lynx_Studio_Technology_CBL_XFDR18_CBL_XMDR18_RCA_Male_to.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/353774-REG/Lynx_Studio_Technology_CBL_XFDR18_CBL_XMDR18_RCA_Male_to.html)
Hope it does what I think it will do?
Thanks to everyone that contributes to forums like these, so us newbs can learn our way into better audio.
Cheers,
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^ The Lynx cable may work, or it may not work; for $8 it's a cheap experiment. Please let us know how it goes. DigiGal incorporates resistors for impedance conversion and quality parts in her cable and you'll get a beautifully-made cable that you know will work as it should. And yes, I think you're having issues PM'ing her since you are a new member.
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He got me with a PM and I've sent him a reply.
I'll second FCB's post above. ;)
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Hi guys and gals, another noob question here :\ ::)
I think I'm set for a normal one-mic recording (like a boomed shotgun), but what I'm trying to anticipate is the occasional higher-profile interview setup -- where your'e pressed for time and can't do it over. So from what I gather, it is best practice to do boom and lav in this situation. The boom being ideal, and the lav as just a backup.
Now (since dialog can be mono?) can I just hard pan those two inputs L/R on the MixPreD, output to the Marantz via AES, and still have the ability to separate/choose them in post??
(Assuming I have to be recording to PCM/WAV and not the interleaved MP3 format?)
Thanks again in advance! ;D
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Hi guys and gals, another noob question here :\ ::)
I think I'm set for a normal one-mic recording (like a boomed shotgun), but what I'm trying to anticipate is the occasional higher-profile interview setup -- where your'e pressed for time and can't do it over. So from what I gather, it is best practice to do boom and lav in this situation. The boom being ideal, and the lav as just a backup.
Now (since dialog can be mono?) can I just hard pan those two inputs L/R on the MixPreD, output to the Marantz via AES, and still have the ability to separate/choose them in post??
(Assuming I have to be recording to PCM/WAV and not the interleaved MP3 format?)
Thanks again in advance! ;D
Yes, assign one mic on Channel 1 and the other on Channel 2 on the MixPre-D. The AES out is two channel so each mic will appear on a different channel giving you independent control for each mic in post. This is nice for a two person interview as well where each talent has their own mic.
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Thanks DigiGal :D I guess if I need 2 lavs and a boom, or more, I'll hire an audio friend to come record an extra track or two on a second recorder (??)
I see you can use the Tape Return for Inputs 3-4, but not sure how to keep extra channels recorded separately without more/different gear.
Really like the look of the SD-633! Maybe in a few years if I really need it.
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Guys and gals.. I seem to have stumped SD support at the moment (he's going to call back after finding someone with the answer).
But I'm curious that I can't find this info in forums or documentation yet:
What bitrate does the MixPreD send out of the AES after the A/D conversion?
I want to capture 24bit/48k in the Marantz.... but I'm not even sure that's what it is getting from the preamp.
I did get the preamp to match the sample rate, so no more D-In error on the 661. :\
Ideas? Guesses? :D
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Got a call back from SD... they said the default for the AES-out is 24bit.
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(Got in contact with Digigal and my cable is on its way" :)
Hi,
I am looking to purchase the AES to S/PDIF cable to run between my mixpre-d and dslr.
After reading this and other posts, I understood that I should be contacting Digigal but when I tried to PM Digigal I didn't see any way to send a PM. Is it because I am new here? If so, how can I contact her? I really need this cable as my projects are relying on it!
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
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Here is a much better solution I ran across for this application and made up one of these cables myself using parts on hand. It works clean from MixPre-D AES to Marantz PMD661 S/PDIF at 24/96. I can confirm this cable also works going the AES out of a Apogee MiniMe to S/PDIF in on a PMD 661.
A passive impedance conversion AES to S/PDIF cable can be made using a quality 75 ohm coax video cable (i.e. Belden 1505A, Canare LV-61S or equivalent), and to turn the 110 ohm AES source into a 75 ohm impedance install 237 ohms of resistance across pins 2 and 3 within the cables AES's XLR-F connector with the center conductor of coax to pin 2 and shield to pin 1. Then terminate the other end of the coax with either a 75 ohm BNC or 75 ohm RCA connector to meet your needs.
The 237 ohm resistance in parallel with the 110 ohm AES source converts it to 75 ohm internally in the XLR-F connector and is then 75 ohm impedance matched all the way to the SPDIF termination. I've since purchased a large stock of 237 ohm resistors and hand tested/sorted each using my HP3478A Bench Meter to find the ones that meet the tightest tolerance. My cable utilizes a Neutrik XCC connector which maintains the coaxial shield something that ordinary XLR connectors don't.
I've many requests from TS members to sell these cables from another post I made. If you'd like one please feel free to send me a PM, I'd be glad to make one for you if you're not capable or don't want to make one yourself. There are now several people out there using my DigiGal AES > S/PDIF passive impedance conversion cable. I keep stock on hand for a quick build time and am considering posting in the Retail thread since demand has been fairly steady.
(http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b419/DigiGal_taper/Cables/file-1.jpg) (http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b419/DigiGal_taper/Cables/file.jpg)
Hi DigiGal,
I've been following this thread (and other related ones) about how to connect the the Sound Devices Mix Pre-D (AES) to the Marantz PMD661 MKII (SPDIF). Based on the feedback here, I'm convinced of purchasing this combo and would like to buy the cable that you've made! I'm unable to PM you, but please message me back so I can get one from you.
Thanks!
Joe
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Got your PM Joe and sent you a reply.
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Hello all
New member here.
By the way this forum is a fab resource for all things audio.
I see this is a old topic but I have the following query
My equipment list:
Sound devices MixPre D. And the Tascam Dr-mr II. I wish to connect the Mixpre AES out to the SPDIF in on the Tascam.
I believe some time ago some members were making these for other members.
May I ask. Can some one point me in the right direction in terms of a member who can make me one of these cables and or a commercial cable solution.
Thanks to all.
D.
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Welcome aboard!
I think that I have two of these, neither of which I use anymore. Shoot me an email at kskreider@gmail.com to remind me to look tonight. I will sling one your way for a reasonable price
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Thank you for the welcome.
Wonderful be in touch. Much appreciated.
D.