Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: runonce on April 24, 2012, 10:24:02 AM
-
I know (and agree) that shotguns are not the best choice in most circumstances.
But the fact is - a lot of tapers ran this way.
Plenty of times - I've patched into guns - and just didn't "get it", but the guy a few stands over did - seems like a huge amount of luck involved.
So how about some examples of shotguns sounding good?
Here's one of SirMicks recordings that has been getting a some steady play at my place...
Grateful Dead Live at Glen Helen Regional Park on 1982-09-05
http://archive.org/details/gd1982-09-05.nak300.sirmick.87210.sbeok.flac16
This has that nice low, pumpy bass - and no shortage of clarity in the instruments - and still plenty of crowd feedback.
You can hear the guns shaping the mids and highs a bit - but I think my ears get used to it pretty quick.
I wonder if there was anything about PA/Speaker tech of this era that may have made guns not such a bad choice?
-
I have a fine example of guns doing a great job. First problem is it's not my master. I have a first gen copy of the master. Second problem is there are some excellent sources of these shows already up. 10/9 and 10/10/82. The taper was FOB/DFC and quite close pointing at the inside edge of the stacks. Quite frankly it's one of the best recordings I've ever heard. Nak CM304's>D5. If I can get at the masters I will seed it someday.
-
I wonder if there was anything about PA/Speaker tech of this era that may have made guns not such a bad choice?
I do think there were some PA changes in summer 1982 which led to Don Pearson's Ultrasound becoming the sound company of choice, which then brought the wonderful Meyer Sound Speakers (and later amps, later integrated amps with Meyers SENSE technology) to the show. IIRC, summer 1982 was with The old sound company (can't remember their name at the moment) did all shows except the three Red Rocks shows in that summer run where Healy introduced the Meyer PA system. after that, they went with the other company until Fall 1982, then they went full time with Ultrasound. The old sound company used Crest Amplifiers and I believe the 1982-1983 Ultrasound setups also used Crest, then started using Meyer amplifiers with speakersense TM after that.
-
This tape sourced from Nakamichi cp4's sounds pretty good. Not a realistic sound by any means; the bass is intense but controlled and there is a big mid peak that is always attributed to the sound of these mics. Still a pleasing recording to listen to.
http://archive.org/details/toubab2005-08-26
-
I think the modern dpa 4017s sound pretty good. They are still basically shotguns, but it's not bad. There is someone in NC who has a pair and the best sample to listen to on the archive is a Ratdog show in Atlanta (http://archive.org/details/ratdog2009-07-18.dpa4017.flac16).
-
One big difference was the use of point source PA speakers in clusters, opposed to line arrays typically used today. Not sure if that helped the guns sound quality though. I was not fully satisfied when I ran a pair of NAK guns, but when I changed to running the CP4s with a card in the center indoors, and omni in the center outside, into an MX100 mixer, I loved the sound. Compromise is a constant for taping to get the best sound under whatever limits are faced, never more so than taping the Grateful Dead. On a side note, when I started taping Phish in '92, I did not like the way guns sounded for them at all, and only ran them a few times before switching to cards and hypers only by '94.
-
same venue and day...
http://archive.org/details/phil2008-07-05.akg451.shotguns
http://archive.org/details/um2008-07-05.451
I typically only use them for quiet shows now
EDIT:
2 more
http://archive.org/details/thedead2009-05-07.akg468.flac16
http://archive.org/details/um2008-07-12.451
-
I have a fine example of guns doing a great job. First problem is it's not my master. I have a first gen copy of the master. Second problem is there are some excellent sources of these shows already up. 10/9 and 10/10/82. The taper was FOB/DFC and quite close pointing at the inside edge of the stacks. Quite frankly it's one of the best recordings I've ever heard. Nak CM304's>D5. If I can get at the masters I will seed it someday.
Is that the FOB where you can hear someone yell "Thank God for the harvest!"? rangos?
-
Nak Guns pointed just inside of the middle of the stack...stand at about 7-8ft high in the average hockey arena ran into a Sony D5 in the OTS...That is what I thought the Grateful Dead sounded like when I got home or was riding down the road to the next venue...I was always happy and satisfied with the result...then again I wasn't in teh cool crowd down front...so I didn't screw it up for them I guess
-
I have a fine example of guns doing a great job. First problem is it's not my master. I have a first gen copy of the master. Second problem is there are some excellent sources of these shows already up. 10/9 and 10/10/82. The taper was FOB/DFC and quite close pointing at the inside edge of the stacks. Quite frankly it's one of the best recordings I've ever heard. Nak CM304's>D5. If I can get at the masters I will seed it someday.
Is that the FOB where you can hear someone yell "Thank God for the harvest!"? rangos?
I'm pretty sure you're refering to Rango's FOB with Sony ECM 220T's. The recording I'm talking about is not in circulation. The guy who owns the master has never transfered any of his stuff. He was big in the midwest and Cali from '82 to about '89. 99% of his recordings are CM304. He has over 300 masters. Near the end he started getting lazy and would often end up all the way in the back just kinda winging it, but his early stuff is very nice. I have quite a few 1st gen copies of his stuff but the only way I would ever seed them is if his masters were gone. I lost touch with him about ten years ago.
-
Jumping forward to the modern era...
Here is one I'm fairly proud of, considering the OTS was in the last row under the balcony, and off to one side. http://archive.org/details/phil2007-10-10.nak300.flac16f
Here's another good one. http://archive.org/details/um2008-08-09.nak300_guns I'd take this gun source over the other sources.
When I had Nak guns I found them hit or miss. As others have described, where you point them is critical, and they have the potential for enormous bass. Lately I'm preferring the shorter guns like ME66's and CK8's.
-
The AKG ck8 shotgun cap is a very nice shotgun. We have pulled many fine tapes with those.
I was actually looking for my ryan montbleau from the egg in albany on 2008-10-04 (opened for Martin Sexton) but it appears I never bothered to upload it to the LMA.
-
http://archive.org/details/gd1985-03-28.nak300.bmandel.78436.sbeok.shnf
-
Akg568
-
I recorded these shows with AT 897's short guns with pretty good results.
http://archive.org/details/Furthur2012-04-07.Furthur2012-04-07.AT897s
http://archive.org/details/furthur2011-07-22.at897.laurentus.114706.flac16
http://archive.org/details/furthur2010-07-30.at897.laurentus.109128.flac16
http://archive.org/details/furthur2010-06-26.at897.laurentus.108501.flac16
I had the DR100 but upgraded to the Dr100MKII, Doug Oade told me these Mics are
a nice match for the DR100. IMO I think the DR100MKII sounds a little cleaner on the 4/7 show
except for the whistler.
-
Properly placed shotguns can sound pretty darn good, especially in indoor barns. It's just like any setup, location location location. Run your Schoeps MK4s in a bad location, you get bad sound. Ditto with the Nak shotguns or any other mic pattern. Back in the 80s I ran both 3" and 5" diameter plastic discs placed directly behind the rear inlets of my Nak 300s. It completely got rid of hall echo and smoothed out some of the transients associated with shotgun patterns. Not sure if any of those recordings have made it to the archive.
-
I know you guys are always talkin down about shotguns, but I really like them, even with many comparison tests. Heck my pull for the Phish reunion in 2009 was the fan favorite for a lot of people until that crazy mastered AKG omni pull with the 80 foot spread. I just prefer the sound of them. It may not be colorless, but often times there is just a closer more present sound that my ears prefer. This could also be due to the fact that I don't normally use high-quality playback systems. There has to be something to be said for mic choice based on a target type of playback system. My pulls may sound worse on a high quality system, but better on a laptop, ipod, or car, and perhaps even better for encoding to a lossy format. I happen to think the choice of shotguns is especially suited to the encoding and typical playback systems involved in live streaming.
Most all my pulls for 10 years now have been the same sennheiser me-66 pair, you can check some out at http://archive.org/bookmarks/archive420
I experimented for a little while with a middle omni or card, but I've found the small benefit, if any, isn't worth the hassle of running 3 channels.
One particular comparison with omnis in the same location can be found right here:
http://archive.org/details/om2008-06-27.me66 (shotguns)
http://archive.org/details/om2008-06-27.STO11 (omnis)
-
Lots of Phish tapers in mid-late 90's ran guns. I have always preferred hypers tho
-
Funny you should say that... the ME-66's that I use are dubbed as "short guns" and do have a hyper-cardioid pickup pattern, as opposed to the ME-67 "long guns" which have a lobar pattern.
EDIT to add: actually just looked it up and the ME-66's are "super" cardioid, not hyper. However the higher frequency range approaches a lobar pattern, while the lower approaches more of a standard cardioid.
-
Funny you should say that... the ME-66's that I use are dubbed as "short guns" and do have a hyper-cardioid pickup pattern, as opposed to the ME-67 "long guns" which have a lobar pattern.
EDIT to add: actually just looked it up and the ME-66's are "super" cardioid, not hyper. However the higher frequency range approaches a lobar pattern, while the lower approaches more of a standard cardioid.
Boeditaper who is from Central NY also runs with Sennheiser guns- I think the ME-66's; I have patched into him once and taped next to him several times. I also own/use AKG CK-8 guns at times and have made many good tapes with them. It seems to me the Senn's and AKg's are A BIT smoother in frequency responce than the Nak 300s.
I know a dude who taped many GD shows in the mid 1980s with Nak 100s and he felt at the time that the 100s were "better" than the 300s. HE also aimed at the insides, directly at the high freq speakers of each stack. He claimed if you just pointed them at the stage straight forward (0 degrees) or aimed at the stacks but did not position them as he did that the recording would be a bit "pumped up" in the Bass freq's.
-
Funny you should say that... the ME-66's that I use are dubbed as "short guns" and do have a hyper-cardioid pickup pattern, as opposed to the ME-67 "long guns" which have a lobar pattern.
EDIT to add: actually just looked it up and the ME-66's are "super" cardioid, not hyper. However the higher frequency range approaches a lobar pattern, while the lower approaches more of a standard cardioid.
Boeditaper who is from Central NY also runs with Sennheiser guns- I think the ME-66's; I have patched into him once and taped next to him several times. I also own/use AKG CK-8 guns at times and have made many good tapes with them. It seems to me the Senn's and AKg's are A BIT smoother in frequency responce than the Nak 300s.
I know a dude who taped many GD shows in the mid 1980s with Nak 100s and he felt at the time that the 100s were "better" than the 300s. HE also aimed at the insides, directly at the high freq speakers of each stack. He claimed if you just pointed them at the stage straight forward (0 degrees) or aimed at the stacks but did not position them as he did that the recording would be a bit "pumped up" in the Bass freq's.
I think we're really talking about the interference tube shotguns, ala Nak 300/CP4 - I think the AKGs are more a hyper/super card...and not an interference tube.
Not sure about the Senns - are they interference tube? -- I think the longer ones are.
-
Funny you should say that... the ME-66's that I use are dubbed as "short guns" and do have a hyper-cardioid pickup pattern, as opposed to the ME-67 "long guns" which have a lobar pattern.
EDIT to add: actually just looked it up and the ME-66's are "super" cardioid, not hyper. However the higher frequency range approaches a lobar pattern, while the lower approaches more of a standard cardioid.
Boeditaper who is from Central NY also runs with Sennheiser guns- I think the ME-66's; I have patched into him once and taped next to him several times. I also own/use AKG CK-8 guns at times and have made many good tapes with them. It seems to me the Senn's and AKg's are A BIT smoother in frequency responce than the Nak 300s.
I know a dude who taped many GD shows in the mid 1980s with Nak 100s and he felt at the time that the 100s were "better" than the 300s. HE also aimed at the insides, directly at the high freq speakers of each stack. He claimed if you just pointed them at the stage straight forward (0 degrees) or aimed at the stacks but did not position them as he did that the recording would be a bit "pumped up" in the Bass freq's.
I think we're really talking about the interference tube shotguns, ala Nak 300/CP4 - I think the AKGs are more a hyper/super card...and not an interference tube.
Not sure about the Senns - are they interference tube? -- I think the longer ones are.
Yes, I think the AKG CK8 is a super cardiod. I would bet the same thing about the Sennheisers. I believe taper420 is correct that the ME 66s are super cardiod. The longer capsules probably are interference tube. I think it is a function of the physics of microphonics. with the Nakamichi long tube design, the side vents allow for signals from the side or off axis to be picked up, then travel down the length of the tube with the direct signal picked up from the front getting mixed in as it travels toward the transducer. when the signals hit the transducer, certain frequencies cancel out and others combine. thus, the pumped up, "swirly" nature of some Nakamichi 300 recordings. Especially when you combine room interference when indoors, and wind when outdoors that may add to the "pumpy swirlyness" (I know, real word? not) often heard with Nak recordings.
Anyone can correct me/add to this understanding of how a long shotgun works? Gutbucket?
-
Funny you should say that... the ME-66's that I use are dubbed as "short guns" and do have a hyper-cardioid pickup pattern, as opposed to the ME-67 "long guns" which have a lobar pattern.
EDIT to add: actually just looked it up and the ME-66's are "super" cardioid, not hyper. However the higher frequency range approaches a lobar pattern, while the lower approaches more of a standard cardioid.
Boeditaper who is from Central NY also runs with Sennheiser guns- I think the ME-66's; I have patched into him once and taped next to him several times. I also own/use AKG CK-8 guns at times and have made many good tapes with them. It seems to me the Senn's and AKg's are A BIT smoother in frequency responce than the Nak 300s.
I know a dude who taped many GD shows in the mid 1980s with Nak 100s and he felt at the time that the 100s were "better" than the 300s. HE also aimed at the insides, directly at the high freq speakers of each stack. He claimed if you just pointed them at the stage straight forward (0 degrees) or aimed at the stacks but did not position them as he did that the recording would be a bit "pumped up" in the Bass freq's.
I think we're really talking about the interference tube shotguns, ala Nak 300/CP4 - I think the AKGs are more a hyper/super card...and not an interference tube.
Not sure about the Senns - are they interference tube? -- I think the longer ones are.
Yes, I think the AKG CK8 is a super cardiod. I would bet the same thing about the Sennheisers. I believe taper420 is correct that the ME 66s are super cardiod. The longer capsules probably are interference tube. I think it is a function of the physics of microphonics. with the Nakamichi long tube design, the side vents allow for signals from the side or off axis to be picked up, then travel down the length of the tube with the direct signal picked up from the front getting mixed in as it travels toward the transducer. when the signals hit the transducer, certain frequencies cancel out and others combine. thus, the pumped up, "swirly" nature of some Nakamichi 300 recordings. Especially when you combine room interference when indoors, and wind when outdoors that may add to the "pumpy swirlyness" (I know, real word? not) often heard with Nak recordings.
Anyone can correct me/add to this understanding of how a long shotgun works? Gutbucket?
if you take one of these Nak guns apart - The tube has a narrow slit running top to bottom...so that must allow something to happen - not sure what...otherwise we wouldn't really need the vents at all...theres nothing behind them but the tube.
One thing I've always wondered - does it matter where you orient the slit? I would think you would want the slit to symmetrical with the other mic...?
-
Was searching for something else and stumbled across this post from DSatz on (among other things) shotgun mics:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=121554.msg1622805#msg1622805
-
So this thread inspired me to get a ck8 recording up on the LMA
This is the Ryan Montbleau solo from The Egg in Albany, NY. If you ever have a chance to catch a show here it is a wonderful acoustic environment. So much so that the room made me feel off balance while we were there.
This recording was made from essentially the last row in the egg to the right of center.
Source: AKG460 (ck8 shotguns) >Tascam T-Mod HDP2(24/48) >CF
http://archive.org/details/montbleau2008-10-04.montbleau2008-10-04.ck8.flac24
I was pressed for time this morning so only the 24Bit went up. Ill try to get the 16 bit up there but have to go to physical media to copy it.
I am going to upload the Martin Sexton Show from the same night in a few.
Also this is also rocksuitcase's ck8's he is discussing above.
-
Fresh off the presses in the Kickdown:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=155405.0
-
Here is the corresponding Martin Sexton Egg show
http://archive.org/details/ms2008-10-04.ms2008-10-04.ck8.flac24
-
Was searching for something else and stumbled across this post from DSatz on (among other things) shotgun mics:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=121554.msg1622805#msg1622805
That might've been the greatest post of his life. I stayed right with him, straight through his entire thought pattern, .......without blinking.
He inspired me. :o :clapping:
-
AKG C568EB shotguns
http://archive.org/details/furthur2010-02-05.akg568.spyder9.106729.flac16
http://archive.org/details/dtb2004-11-26.spyder9.flac16
-
AKG C568EB shotguns
http://archive.org/details/furthur2010-02-05.akg568.spyder9.106729.flac16
http://archive.org/details/dtb2004-11-26.spyder9.flac16
right with ya dan.. I am starting the transfers of my friends akg568 archive.. I will post as I progress through the DATS..
-
http://archive.org/details/dirtfoot2011-10-13.nakCP-4.flac16
The sound guy got stuff correct around track 6 or 7....
Seems that the RRE and Rev Peyton shows I recorded with the same mics couldn't handle the bass kick very well and essentially ruined each recording.
-
(edit: referring to eric.B's post above regarding the 568 transfers)
^^^^^ NICE!!!
That Scarlet>Fire from 10/14/94 is one of the better, if not THE best, latter day versions, IMO!
-
The rarely heard Nak 700 gun...!
http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=554887
Grateful Dead - Glens Falls Civic Center, Glens Falls, N.Y., 05/08/1980 (3-Nak 700 Shotguns)
Still dl'ing this one - but so far all these ddyche sources have been awsome...
-
The rarely heard Nak 700 gun...!
http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=554887
Grateful Dead - Glens Falls Civic Center, Glens Falls, N.Y., 05/08/1980 (3-Nak 700 Shotguns)
Still dl'ing this one - but so far all these ddyche sources have been awsome...
Spot on sir! Couldn't agree more.
When I hear about folks getting a good pull with the guns I immediately think of Dead auds.
Thanks for the link, as I haven't listened to much 80's dead ever.
-
Well I was one of those heads who used both guns and cards. I am beginning the conversion process now. I posted my 1985 Fox's on the Sony's. I am working on the Merriwewther's now. They sound real good.
Now remember the Dead's PA was a real different animal than what we hear today. It had some punch. Heck today's smaller cabinets just cannot move as much air, the stereo mix was wider too. With that said there were different techniques or places to aim the mic's. I found that a level mic delivered the best low end. I also preferred the seats on the floor vs on the risers. But truly we had a bigger target with those wide array's vs these little narrow strips they use today.
Actually I would like to get those Sennheiser ME-80's back and play around with them. I guess I need to try and recontact an old friend. I actually have another reason to check in with him, need to stop procrastinating.