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Author Topic: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view  (Read 89755 times)

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Offline Ozpeter

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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #180 on: September 02, 2024, 11:04:55 AM »
I am possibly repeating myself, but 32 bit float A to D conversion cannot clip.  The prior analog stages can.  But these devices are designed with gain staging set so that under normal circumstances you would have to work hard to clip the analog front end.  +4dBu is industry standard.

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #181 on: September 03, 2024, 09:26:10 AM »
Meanwhile, I remembered while reading this thread that my very first digital recording of any kind, back in 1983, was... 14 bits.  How far we have come!  When I was asked to make it, I had never even heard a digital recording.  I had a LOT to learn.  I hired a Sony F1 / SLF1 system that used betamax tapes.  I borrowed a pair of mics.  Here are a couple of relevant links.  The second link reproduces the Sony blurb which explained what digital recording was all about.  Actually, I have just read there that the F1 could run at 16 bit for those wanting the ultimate quality.  So maybe I did the right thing and used that option in fact.

https://www.palsite.com/slf1ovi.html

https://www.palsite.com/pcmf1ovi.html

Anyway, the end result was no disaster (imho) and it can still be heard on YouTube Music.  At the time it got a gold award from a French magazine review. It's the first album in the playlist of some of my albums which I had a bit of fun putting together today, using the Discogs database to remind myself what I have recorded over the years.  Some albums I had completely forgotten about! 

https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLW7X_zDpTwy3bogeppBSktVXgfkvgzNLf&si=6qedaTGP50lrDuMg

Anyone interested in what a very old digital recording sounds like (possibly mangled by YouTube) might care to listen to the first 30 seconds...

I guess this post is the very definition of off-topic. Sorry!

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #182 on: September 03, 2024, 10:05:01 AM »
^ Would be cool if they included an internal function that would both normalize the 32bit float file AND produce a 24bit file from that on the recorder itself, streamlining post work where desirable.  Sound Devices should be able to do that easily since the MixPre IIs already have the capability of supporting internal mixdown to a new file, I believe.
Gut, you're gonna have to demonstrate that there is substantial benefit from doing the processing on the unit versus a DAW. That touchscreen is minuscule, even compared with a laptop monitor. And control bandwidth on the mp-x is again minuscule compared to a kbd and mouse.

Why would I want to do those things on the recorder?

Just as an option which would allow the user to leverage the 32bit float advantages of not having to set input levels ahead of time, but produce a 24bit fixed output file directly on the recorder instead of having to transfer the file to a computer to do that.  Wouldn't be forced to operate in it that way, it would simply be a nice to have option.  Could always still transfer the original 32bit float file to the computer later.. along with its 24bit fixed derivative.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Chilly Brioschi

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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #183 on: September 03, 2024, 06:55:16 PM »
I plan to chain a (borrowed) Beachtek DXA-PRE ahead of the F3 the to see what sort of mayhem ensues.
The owner does corporate gigs, so I'm trying to find a time that he doesn't need it and I have a local gig to tape.
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Offline TheJez

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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #184 on: September 05, 2024, 08:56:29 AM »
^ Would be cool if they included an internal function that would both normalize the 32bit float file AND produce a 24bit file from that on the recorder itself, streamlining post work where desirable.  Sound Devices should be able to do that easily since the MixPre IIs already have the capability of supporting internal mixdown to a new file, I believe.
Gut, you're gonna have to demonstrate that there is substantial benefit from doing the processing on the unit versus a DAW. That touchscreen is minuscule, even compared with a laptop monitor. And control bandwidth on the mp-x is again minuscule compared to a kbd and mouse.

Why would I want to do those things on the recorder?

Just as an option which would allow the user to leverage the 32bit float advantages of not having to set input levels ahead of time, but produce a 24bit fixed output file directly on the recorder instead of having to transfer the file to a computer to do that.  Wouldn't be forced to operate in it that way, it would simply be a nice to have option.  Could always still transfer the original 32bit float file to the computer later.. along with its 24bit fixed derivative.

The upcoming Zoom H1 XLR has exactly this option, see screenshot of the manual...

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #185 on: September 05, 2024, 09:56:15 AM »
^ which is where we started that discussion on 22 August.  :cheers:

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #186 on: September 05, 2024, 09:59:22 AM »
 :coolguy:
I suspect other recorders will incorporate the same over time.

..and wonder what value the H1 XLR normalizes the highest peak to, since it doesn't say.

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #187 on: September 05, 2024, 10:05:14 AM »
I will try to check that function on my M2 Mictrak device tomorrow to see what level that gives when normalised.  I imagine other devices in their stable will work the same way.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2024, 10:26:38 AM by Ozpeter »

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #188 on: September 06, 2024, 09:30:38 AM »
Well, using the Zoom M2 I generated a test tone @ 440Hz using Adobe Audition, recorded 30 seconds of it from loudspeaker replay, and then used the built in export function to normalise the recording and export to 16 bit and 24 bit (two rapid operations).  Then I opened the exported files one at a time in  Audition, replayed them, and noted the maximum level shown (and retained) on the meters.  This showed that the file was normalised within the device to 0dB.  Originally the peak value of the 32 bit float file was -11dB approx.

However, this exercise revealed a drawback in using the built in normalisation function.  Right at the start of the recording there was some kind of transient click, either from handling or from pressing the record button.  This was actually louder than the recorded tone.  So the tone wasn't normalised as such - the click dictated how the whole file was normalised.  If I had been doing this with real material I would probably have edited off the click in the DAW, and then normalised the actual wanted part of the recording.  This might not happen all the time, depending on circumstances - I wasn't very careful about how I was holding the device when I recorded the tone, and as it's almost midnight here I replayed the tone at a modest level not wishing to disturb the neighbours.   But it does illustrate a possible hazard in undertaking whole-file internal normalisation.  But, it would give you something reasonably playable in terms of level, prior to further level control operations. 

[Edited to add, while talking about this much maligned device - I just recorded some room silence using the M2 by the time honoured method of shoving it under a folded duvet in the early hours of the morning in a silent bedroom.  I then examined the file in Adobe Audition.  In the spectral frequency display there was absolutely no horizontal lines at all (which would indicate a noise band of some kind) and that was with the range cranked up to 210dB.  Looking at the frequency display there was a maximum level of about -91dB at around 100Hz.  This could be city rumble.  At 1000 Hz the level was about -117dB and at 5Khz the level was -126dB. The level continued to drop slightly so that at 10kHz it was -127dB.  Above that it slightly declined further.  I doubt whether this amount of noise (system noise plus mic noise) would be of any real consequence or concern even in a classical recording - and it seems to me for the price of the device, it's nothing to complain about.  I paid $117 US dollar equivalent back in December.]
« Last Edit: September 06, 2024, 11:21:06 AM by Ozpeter »

 

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