Topic: R-44 and H2 vs Pro Symphony Orchestra

[Ozpeter]

I recently had to record - officially, for FM radio broadcast - a professional symphony orchestra in a 3000+ seat hall.  Unfortunately setup time allowed was brief and no balance test was possible, so I used a rather unusual method.

The main Sennheiser MKH series main pair (MS stereo) was suspended high above the first row of the audience and run directly into the stock R-44.  Two spot mics were also connected to the R-44 - they were not used in the recorded samples.

In the centre of the orchestra on a c.12 foot stand I used a Zoom H2 set to record two stereo files from its front and back built-in mics.  The stand was right in front of, and effectively above, the first row of woodwind instruments.  The back of the H2 faced the back of the orchestra and the front faced the conductor, looking across the back of the string players.

I set levels conservatively - to normalise the sample files I applied gains of about 10 to 12dB.

The download is about 3MB and includes four mp3 256kbps stereo files of the same short passage of music, which starts fortissimo and becomes pianissimo half way through, the idea being to provide a practical example of the dynamic range available on the R-44 and H2.

The files come respectively from the R-44 main pair, the H2 front pair, the H2 rear pair, and finally the mixed and effected post-pro version from all three stereo files.  Only the mixdown file has anything applied apart from normalising.

Getting the files lined up in the DAW (Reaper) was no big deal.  From time to time in editing the performance - about every ten minutes? - it was necessary to re-sync the files by a very small amount.   As there was a considerable distance between the H2 and the main pair, minor changes in time alignment are not very obvious.

The concert involved some amplified speeches from a lectern, which I recorded using a Hi-MD recorder, also synced in as required - again, really the work of a moment.  So all in all I was running ten channels on three devices!

I expected the R-44 to turn in a good result but the result from the H2 was, considering its size and cost, pretty remarkable to my mind.  It was running on its "L" gain setting but I think I could have used "M", but even so there are (to my ear) no significant noise issues at normal replay levels (apart from the noise of the hall, musicians, and audience!).  H2 frequency response has no particular issues that can't be fixed with a bit of eq to taste.  I wouldn't hesitate to use the same technique again.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/22/1451533/R44%20H2.zip is the sample package.  I can't post anything longer for copyright reasons.

[digifish_music]

That's a big +T thanks for this

The performance transcends the medium every time.

digifish

[sanaka]

Wow, that is way cool. The H2 is indeed pretty amazing, considering. I must say though my favorite of the four versions is just the straight MKH>R44.

Peace,
Sanaka

[Ozpeter]

I must say though my favorite of the four versions is just the straight MKH>R44.

I've got a few tweak thoughts in mind... usually listening first thing in the morning reveals that what was fantastic last thing at night, isn't!

I've not included a sample but earlier in the concert there was a piano concerto, and the piano came through like a train on the main pair - no need for a piano spot mic! - and the H2 saved the day as far as getting a mix where you could actually hear the orchestra is concerned.  So part of the mix rationale is consistency with the other works.  And in this work there are some passages with a lot of percussion that needs to be kept focussed rather than washy.

But as a rule of thumb, for natural sounding classical music concert recording, a well placed pair of mics should normally suffice, unless there's an obvious reason to go further.

[Manuell]

Hi Ozpeter,
whats the correct name of the mkhs you are using?

Manuel

[flintstone]

Ozpeter,

Thanks again for a wonderful contribution -- Very useful!

Please post your message on the Nature Recordists list on Yahoo.
I'm sure people there would welcome the opportunity to
hear this comparison.

Thanks,
Flintstone

[Kevin T]

I've been thinking about getting a R44 but Now I wonder why. Perhaps I should just get a second H2
and sync them in post  

[Ozpeter]

whats the correct name of the mkhs you are using?

MKH 30, MKH40.  Would you believe after all these years I had to take them out of the box to check the numbers?!

I've been thinking about getting a R44 but Now I wonder why. Perhaps I should just get a second H2

Tempting, huh?  I wouldn't begin to claim that one can chuck out all one's proper gear and use multiple H2's instead (or of course any of the other compact recorder rivals) but if circumstances dictate that you have to use them, it need not be any kind of disaster with a bit of postproduction jiggery-pokery.

As a sweeping generalisation the time taken to sync unsynced recorders in post production is probably no more than the time taken to run out and stick down and unstick and roll up mic cables etc to normal mics in their place.

[stantheman1976]

Nice job.  I would definitely consider this broadcast worthy. 
+T

[Kevin T]

I must say though my favorite of the four versions is just the straight MKH>R44.

I've got a few tweak thoughts in mind... usually listening first thing in the morning reveals that what was fantastic last thing at night, isn't!

I've not included a sample but earlier in the concert there was a piano concerto, and the piano came through like a train on the main pair - no need for a piano spot mic! - and the H2 saved the day as far as getting a mix where you could actually hear the orchestra is concerned.  So part of the mix rationale is consistency with the other works.  And in this work there are some passages with a lot of percussion that needs to be kept focussed rather than washy.

But as a rule of thumb, for natural sounding classical music concert recording, a well placed pair of mics should normally suffice, unless there's an obvious reason to go further.

Ozpeter

Could you post a sample of the piano with just H2 vs R44? I need to convince my studio owner pal to use an H2 (at least as a safety) for his choir + piano school recordings where he uses DA38's and multi positioned Mic's. He gets very good results but the H2 simplicity is a "no brainer"   

[Ozpeter]

A piano bit?  Well, I've quickly taken a short section off the DAW with the main pair muted (therefore leaving just the front and back pairs of the H2 audible) and the same with the main pair solo'd (= R-44 only).  Remember the H2 is in the middle of the orchestra so it barely hears the piano.  These samples do have a little eq at the bottom end plus a touch of reverb, but like I said before, never mind the original sound, it's the post-processed sound that the client hears, so as long as that's ok, it's mission accomplished.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/22/1451533/The%20end.zip which is about a 1Mb I think.

[sanaka]

Wow, again both of those recordings are really good, Ozpeter. As well as a quickie-stone-simple-yet-respectable backup rig, seems like in the right hands (like yours) the H2 is a very useful piece to integrate into one's recording technique. Carry on!

Peace,
Sanaka