Topic: optimizing wavelab for 24 bit

[dmonterisi]

what settings are people using to record wavelab at 24bit (i'll be doing 24/96, but 24/48 should applly).  

In the preferences dialog, what are the buffers set at?  cache?

i set it to 24bit temp files, is this correct?

in the record dialog, i chose auto-split and then set it to 1800MB, good?

also, in windows, i've set one setting to optimize windows for background processes as opposed to programs, is this correct?  there is another setting underneath that, which i can't remember the choice, what should that be set to?

any suggestions appreciated and i think this would be a candidate for the archive.

[Wes]

you got it all right damon, you could increase you file size on the auto split up to 1999, but 1800 is fine too.  I just used the default buffer setting and cache.  i don't know if this is "the best" settting, but, i can say that i recorded around 100 or so hours with no problems.

Wes

[nic]

"also, in windows, i've set one setting to optimize windows for background processes as opposed to programs, is this correct? "

NO, you want it optimized for programs!

the setting below that is for page files...you can leave that at default

[dmonterisi]

really?  i could've sworn a ton of people on this board have said to set it for background processes...

[nic]

Wavelab and all sound recording apps are programs, not background processes. recording is NOT a background process.

what Windows is referring to with regards to "background processes" is internal services like Messenger, rundll, IIS, etc...

[dmonterisi]

i understand that wavelab itself is a program, but is the recording of music through the pcmcia card using various drivers a background process?  i've seen numerous posts from people who have set their laptop up for taping for background processes over apps.  not trying to be difficult, just trying to figure this out.

thanks for all the info +t

[twoodruff]

i can help you guys out much better if ya get me a copy of wavelab

[dmonterisi]

you have a server smartass?

[twoodruff]

working on it

[Tim]

working on it

I got mine sent to me over AIM by a certain guy in Iowa who makes shitty tapes...

I can aim you mine...

my aim is u89taper  

[dmonterisi]

my aim is u89taper  

   

[twoodruff]

hey I'm u89m148






jk

[Tim]

rotflmao  

you two crack me up....

[mirth]

BACKGROUND PROCESSES! I know it sounds bass-ackwards but it is the correct setting.

[dmonterisi]

thanks, mirth, can you please explain why?  thanks.

[rabhan]

aheeem: read http://24bitfaq.org/



1.21:

It should be noted that not all software packages share the same level of stability, bit-transparentness, human interface design, and ease and speed of file handling.  The author has found the Sonic Foundry products to provide a great balance of these criteria, while others have found Steinberg’s Cubase and Wavelab to be preferable.  Stability of a program also depends very greatly on the OS, drivers, hardware platform, and other programs and processes running in the background.  Be sure to see 4.2.2 for issues concerning the handling the limits of file sizes when recording and editing, as many programs are not capable of recording for extended periods of time.
 


and i believe you want 16bit temp files.

[dmonterisi]

so you want 16 bit temp files when recording 24 bit files?  

[dklein]

Wavelab and all sound recording apps are programs, not background processes. recording is NOT a background process.

what Windows is referring to with regards to "background processes" is internal services like Messenger, rundll, IIS, etc...

My understanding is this is about how much processor time windows will give to apps running in the background (everything but the single one running in the foreground) AND services.  Shouldn't be a problem with either setting - recording doesn't take much in the way of resources (that's why just about any old machine can do it).

[dklein]

so you want 16 bit temp files when recording 24 bit files?  

Temp files are for processing, not recording (things like amplitude adjustment, eq, fades).  But you certainly wouldn't want to take your 24 bit files and process them in 16 bit!

Wavelab records directly to the file without the use of temp files - and that's good because if you crash, you've still got a file to work with.  The only problem is that the header doesn't get properly written, which is why the file has data but can't be read.  The header contains info about the number of data chunks in the file (really, that's what they're called).  

[rabhan]

i had to set my temp files at 16bit, see this:

http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=4755

[rabhan]

if you dont want to read the thread:

JON,

This is an easy fix.  Go into your properties, and change the default temporary file from 32-bit float point to 16 bit.  This should resolve all of the issues you are having with the 2gb file limit.  The temp file creates a 4gb file in 32-bit as oppposed to the actual size!

Daryan

[dklein]

ok...but then does it still makes sense to record in 24 bit.  I think your resampling process will drop to 16 bit resolution.  Something else, doesn't make sense here - if you have a 1.2GB 24 bit file, it should open as a 1.6GB 32 bit file.  (file size * 32/24)  This is what happens to the temp files when I open up a 24 bit file in 32 bit with Cool Edit Pro.

At the very least, try setting your temp files to 24 bit.

Wavelab help says:

This pop-up allows you to select a resolution for the temporary files that WaveLab creates when you work. You can choose between 16 bit, 24 bit and 32 bit float files. Some general guidelines:

 If you ever plan to export your files in 24 or 32 bit format, use this resolution or a higher one for your temporary files as well.
 Even if you only work with 16 bit files, selecting 24 bit for your temporary files can improve audio quality slightly.
 For less critical applications where speed and disk space are crucial factors, use 16 bit temporary files.

I have a 1.2 GB file I'm going to try the same thing on with it set to 32 bit.  Let's see what it does...

[rabhan]

well why cant wavelab do 24bit on my laptop with files that are only 1.5g?

[dklein]

this is some weird shit.  I got the same error.  Makes no sense...

I'll try cool edit pro for a resample on the same file - I've seen temp file in use by CEP that are >4 GB.

[dklein]

It's running...I'm off to a show.  I'll post the results later.

[dklein]

Well, Cool Edit Pro had no problem resampling a 1.7GB, 24/44.1 to 24/48.  And it did it in 32 bit format.  When I looked in the temp directory, the temp file created was 4GB.

I'd like to understand this a little bit more but so far I'd say I'm not really enjoying Wavelab 4.  I find the interface awkward and these kinds of limitations seem, well, limiting!  Maybe someone who knows the software well can give some guidance.  The only reason I went to wavelab was for the auto split feature on recording

On the other hand, I've always loved Cool Edit Pro and just upgraded to v2.0 and it seems just as easy with more cool features.  For recording, I'll have to check if it has autosplit or if it somehow bypasses the 2GB limit.

[dklein]

Looks like a wavelab limitation.  Apparently this board is moderated by Steinberg developers...
http://forum.cubase.net/forum/Forum3/HTML/004847.html

suddenly feeling quite down on wavelab as a serious tool.  

[Simp-Dawg]

i wish sound forge would do auto split...i really like sf for recording!

[rabhan]

i just found CEPRO 1.0, what are the advantages of 2.0?

also why is 1.0 or 1.1 better?

[rabhan]

just saw this:

"Cool Edit Pro is now Adobe Audition. Syntrillium. ... On August 18th, 2003 Adobe released  a rebranded version of Cool Edit Pro 2.1 as Adobe Audition™ software. ...  "

[RRobar]

Actually samplitude 2496 was my fave software. I had the 90 day fully functional trial version and really liked it. However, I could not afford it so when it expired I went to "Shareware". I had not heard about adobe buying syntrillium. I'll have to check out the adobe sites and see if I can find it.

[rabhan]

well, i just found CEP 2.0, i guess i will use wavelab for recording and CEP for resampling and dithering. how do you do it with CEP?

[DaryanLenz]

I have a funny program that allows you to snag the "demo" of samplitude and unlock it if you happen to want it...  I have all the other programs we are usually talking about as well!



Daryan

[rabhan]

i just got CEP 2.1 and samp 6.0. which should i use for the resample and dither since wavelab isnt up to par for doing it. also, how do you do it with those apps?

[DaryanLenz]

I am not sure, as I use wavelab for just about everything.  What is wrong with wavelab for dithering?

D

[rabhan]

re-read this thread my friend

[dklein]

Well I guess dithering in Wavelab (4.0c) isn't the same as other kinds of processing like resampling.  I just dithered down a 1.7GB 24/44.1 to 16/44.1 without any problems.  And it took all of a minute and a half to do it.

[rabhan]

if i can record with wavlab and dither with it also, should i use CEP or SF for resampling?

[mterry]

So, just one basic thing to make everything clear for myself. When recording in 24bit with WL, I want to it for a 16bit float file, or keep it at 32bit?

[dklein]

if i can record with wavlab and dither with it also, should i use CEP or SF for resampling?

I'm just trying to figure this out as well, but it sounds like if you need to resample, sometimes your choices will be:
use CEP (or SF but I haven't tried it) because wavelab can't do large files
OR
split your file into smaller pieces that wavelab can handle

I think that resampling in wavelab with 16 bit temp files sounds like a bad idea.  Any processing that uses a temp file should be in at least the same resolution as your source file or you're just throwing it all away.  32 bit float would be the best if you're going to use more than one processing step as it will maintain maximum accuracy until it's time to step down to 24 or 16.

[dklein]

So, just one basic thing to make everything clear for myself. When recording in 24bit with WL, I want to it for a 16bit float file, or keep it at 32bit?

Here I don't think it matters - when recording, you are using whatever you are set to record in.  There's no use of temp files and there's no processing.  As soon as you go to change some characteristic of the file (like volume, sample rate, eq), the use of temp files kicks in and as above, I think you really need to keep at least the same word length (or bit depth or whatever you want to call it).  Not that it will screw up your file or anything, but you'll just be tossing that extra resolution out and doing so without the use of dithering.  No point in returning to 24 bits and dithering when you've already hacked it to 16.  

Does that make sense?  I know that your actual file will still be 24 bits but you won't have the fine detail of 24 - sample values will be at x or y but not the points in between (that they could have been with 24 or 32 bit resolution when processed)....I think...

[rabhan]

okay, so i recorded LOS last night. i want to resample from 48 to 44 in something other than wavlab. i am trying CEP2.1. it took over 10mins to open a 1.2G 24/48 file and i selected convert sample rate and it looks like it is going to take like over 15mins to do it. i have a P3-1.1G and 640MG ram, now when i used WL4.0g, it opened the file in 3secs and only took like 5mins to resample the data. wtf is the deal with CEP?

[DaryanLenz]

CEP has always been slow for me, especially trying to resample.  I am not sure of settings or anything to make it quicker as I use wavelab for just about everything in 16bit.  I use CEP 2.1 for matrixing only pretty much...and I suck at that as of late too!



Daryan

[rabhan]

now it is doing some phase 2 thing, taking another 12 minutes.....CEP is starting to piss me off!

[Brian Skalinder]

now it is doing some phase 2 thing, taking another 12 minutes.....CEP is starting to piss me off!

CEP has some decent failure recovery stuff it handles in the background with temp files, so on the first opening of the file, it takes a while.  All subsequent openings of the same file should be swift.

Also - are your temp files on a different physical disk?  This should help significantly.

As for the two phase thing, here's kinda how it works:

Editing

[1]  save "undo" info
[2]  perform processing

Saving

[3]  flush WAV file
[4]  save WAV file

You can skip [1], but not [3].  And it doesn't always do [3].  I'm not sure when or why, necessarily.  I always skip [1] - if I flub it, I just close the file, re-open the original, and start again.

Perhaps CEP takes longer to do the resampling because it's a higher quality resample?  Dunno.

[rabhan]

i said fuck it and stopped it. i shouldnt have to wait a friggin hour to resample in CEP when WL only takes 5mins. thats just bunk! i quess i will install SF6 and try that. it that also fails, i might just use 16bit temp files to resample with WL bc it will be dithered to 16 anyhow.

[dklein]

WL4.0g, it opened the file in 3secs and only took like 5mins to resample the data. wtf is the deal with CEP?

Wavelab opened in 3 seconds because it already had the peak file made from when you recorded it.  CEP had to make its own (the peak file is a sampling of the whole thing that gives you the wave form you see).

You can follow Brian's recommendation to skip the undo - if you fuck up, just don't save it.

I wouldn't be put off by the speed though - resampling can involve heavy calculations and things that are fast generally aren't doing as precise a job.  I'd also shy away from setting the temp files to 16 bit - you put all that effort into getting a hi res recording, why trash it at the end to save a half hour or so...

[BC]

I noticed the same thing, Wavelab would rip through the resampling really quick. When using sound forge, resampling at the highest quality setting (and anti-aliasing filter enabled ) it takes a LOT longer.

Because of this I use Soundforge for my resampling. Like the previous poster said, resampling is a process that involves some heavy-duty number crunching. For a given quality of resampling I don't think there are any shortcuts to reduce the time it takes, other than more processing power (=faster computer). Thus I think that wavelab must be using an algorithm with much less resolution, and I'd prefer to get the most out of my recording when doing the 48>44.1 conversion. I usually will open all the files I need to resample and start crunching them when I go to bed, that way they are all done when I wake up. in the morning.  Dither down to 16 bit, save the 16/44.1 files, track em' in CDWAV, save the CUE sheets, and extract the individual tracks for the high res and low(er) resolution WAV files...

Peace out-
Ben

[rabhan]

ok, ok, ok i will do it that way......  

[rabhan]

for some reason CEP thinks that the file is a 32bit file, why is that?

[rabhan]

well, it doesnt matter i dont imagine, i just opened the 24/44 file that CEP created with WL and it says that it really is 24/44 and not 32. so now i am dithering it.

[rabhan]

when i dither, should the priority boost be on "fast"

[RRobar]

I have a real hard time believing SF or CE have a better algorthym than wavelab. I'd go with Cool edit pro for downsampling over SF any day. My experience shows SF to have a undesirable resampling. Thats just my opinion.

I think CEP does not have a straight 24bit setting I only remember the 32bit float. It's been awhile though.

[rabhan]

ok cool.....

[Simp-Dawg]

anybody else getting tired of the conversion process?

[Kindguy]

my head hurts.....I'm going back to Dat

[dklein]

CEP will open 24 bit files into a 32 bit float format and work on them that way.  If you save back to 24 bit format, CEP will either truncate or dither to 24 bit (depending on what you have selected in the options button, visible when you go to save the file).  This will be the default.

So if you don't want to dither twice (and you don't), when you go to save the CEP file, click options and save in 32 bit float (you'll see the dither box greyed out).  Then dither that file in Wavelab.  You can save a 24 bit copy and a 16 bit copy for burning if yo want.

[F.O.Bean]

if i can record with wavlab and dither with it also, should i use CEP or SF for resampling?

ive been all over samp6.0 for resampling and wavelab for everything else....maybe even samp6.0 for normalizing

[rabhan]

can i use 24bit temp files in WL or should i use the 32bit float? does it matter for recording 24bit?

also when i convert the sample rate in CEP, the number at the bottom says 150, which is the default, should i move that slider bar and select another number?

[dklein]

can i use 24bit temp files in WL or should i use the 32bit float? does it matter for recording 24bit?

also when i convert the sample rate in CEP, the number at the bottom says 150, which is the default, should i move that slider bar and select another number?

I think the temp files are only for processing - no bearing on recording.  So it would come into play for changing sample rates or doing eq but not for recording.  

On the slider for converting, I'd crank it to maximum quality...the only cost is time

[rabhan]

thx