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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: crackmc on May 12, 2008, 02:04:16 AM
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sorry if this has been covered in another thread already...my search yielded no results...
i recorded a 90min set last night - 4 channels (stereoX2), 24/96. it appears that the R-4 split the .wav file at 1:02. i was standing next to my rig at the time of the split (to be more accurate - i remember the song during which this split appears), and i'm 100% certain that nobody (including myself) touched my deck during the entire set. i haven't scrutinized the recording yet but i'm pretty sure no data/audio was lost, so it shouldn't be too difficult to merge the two files seamlessly.
has anybody else experienced this? it was my first time recording in stereoX2/24/96 mode. the only explanation i can think of is that the file was too large for the R-4's on-board OS (for lack of a better term) to handle, but that still doesn't make much sense. i tried to merge the two files together using the R-4's 'wave edit' feature, but i got a weird *! improper task* error (or something like that).
is this normal?
does my R-4 hate me?
was it a bad idea to feed Gizmo after midnight?
(http://groovygreen.com/groove/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/snipshot_d4tuw0wv49a.jpg)
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Most DAW's cannot handle files that are over 2gb, and the R4 automatically splits the recorded files when they reach 2gb (an hour, 3 mintues and 7 seconds to be exact, but the unit splits at 1:02). Like you said, this split is seamless and the two files can be joined back together in post production easily.
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man...i had to wait 13 whole minutes for my answer :D
thanks, Patrick!
[plustea]
i was aware that most DAWs can't read files larger than 2g...i just didn't expect the R-4 to be aware of it. :D
i kind of wish it would let me decide where the split goes though, since the R-4 allows you to split files before transferring them off of the HD and into a DAW.
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here's how to merge two split files in soundforge:
open part 1. make no edits, just let it open. it'll take a good minute or two to get the file open.
open part 2. make no edits, just let it open.
making sure you're looking at part 2, hit CTRL-A (Select All), then CTRL-C (Copy).
then go to Window on the soundforge menu and flip back to part 1.
move the cursor to the end of part 1. there's a button on the lower left corner next to the play/stop buttons called "Go To End". just hover over buttons until you find it.
once the cursor is at the end of the file, just hit CTRL-V (Paste) and it will bring part 2 onto the tail of part 1
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yeah...thanks, man
it will be easy to merge them in Audition, too
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it will be easy to merge them in Audition, too
File > Open Append (in the edit view) - simple but effective command that I think not all editors have.
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It's a relief that if this 2GB file split has to happen you can patch it back seamlessly, but wouldn't it be better if it didn't have to happen at all?
I mean, the R-09 allows you the option to turn the file split off, so obviously someone considered that we might not want the file to split arbitrarily like that.
Can anyone tell me the reasoning for this split occurring in the first place?
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Can anyone tell me the reasoning for this split occurring in the first place?
Most DAW's cannot handle files that are over 2gb
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Yes, I understand that is the rule of thumb; I was asking if anyone knew the technical reason for this...?
Can anyone tell me the reasoning for this split occurring in the first place?
Most DAW's cannot handle files that are over 2gb
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Yes, I understand that is the rule of thumb; I was asking if anyone knew the technical reason for this...?
Sorry for the confusion. I know the answer but I think Scott Brown can explain it a little better than I can :P
WAV/AIFF are 32 bit formats. the max amount if information that the file formats can store is 2^ 32 bits, or 4 gigs. This means that technically, wav files have a hard limit of 4 gigs. However, most software programs use signed numbers, so they use 1 bit for the sign. This drops the amount of bits available to 2^31, or 2 gigs. So the file format has a 4 gig limit, but most software programs make it a 2 gig limit by using signed numbers.
file systems and operating systems are not the reason for the 2 gig limit. it's a combination of the wav/aiff format and how software handles the files.
To answer the question of "how come a JB3 can split on 3 hours instead of a size issue?" Well, do you know how large a 3 gig 16/44.1 file is? Remember 90 meter dat tapes? They recorded a little over 3 hours, right? What size did it say on there? 2GB.
So it's not a hardware limitation. It's not something hardware manufacturers or software designers decided to make up on their own. It's a limtation in the file format itself. To address larger files, the format needs to be larger than 32 bits. Wav64, for example, although it's not a "standard" (as far as i know), can handle HUGE files, because it's a 64 bit format. 2^64 is a HUGE number of bits
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^^^^Thanks for pointing me to that info - I had not seen that before.
Hmmm.... this makes me think it goes back to the origin of digital audio, which as I heard at one time was a video format, not necessarily intended to become a new entity in itself. I believe that is why there has been so so much confusion over various sampling and bitrate conversions.
I haven't hit the limit on my R-04 yet, but my R-09 has a built-in function that allows you to turn the file split off - at least in theory, as I haven't hit the limit on that unit either.
Given the inherent limitations of the format, then, it makes good engineering sense to design units for seamless patching. I did run into the 2GB limit on a Microtrack, and although it continued to write a new file and continue recording, it apparently had to stop and write the first file before it could go on to the new file, so there was definitely some data missing.
I tend to record these days in 24/48, so I suspect the time limit I would have to watch for may vary from 1 hour, 3 minutes. Does anyone know about that?
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Hopefully this will help.
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There are actually two different hard limits in most recorders.
1) A standard wave file can be max 4G in size. A lot of wave editors used to have a bug so they choked on files above 2G. A very sensible and conservative choice then is set the limit at 2G
2) Most units uses the file system FAT32. This has a limit on file sizes ov 4G.
Both limits can be overcome of course, but you need to change both file system and file format in order to go above 4G. As very few users really hit this limit, so far it has not been done very often.
// Gunnar
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I haven't hit the limit on my R-04 yet, but my R-09 has a built-in function that allows you to turn the file split off - at least in theory, as I haven't hit the limit on that unit either.
I think you need to check the documentation on the R-09. I believe the File Split - Yes/No option is whether or not you want the manual file split feature turned on or off, not whether the auto file split is turned off or on. You can determine at which size the auto file split occurs, but you cannot turn it off.
Sorry to go off topic, but thought this needed clarification.
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I believe the File Split - Yes/No option is whether or not you want the manual file split feature turned on or off, not whether the auto file split is turned off or on. You can determine at which size the auto file split occurs, but you cannot turn it off.
This is correct.
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Hey, all - this is all great information. Thanks for helping to clear up some of these details. Admittedly, it's just more of a personal curiosity for me than a pressing concern, as I generally wouldn't hit that limit, but I do think it's good to understand the logic behind some of the processes we deal with. I will indeed look back at my documentation to see if I've missed anything else, but thanks again in the meantime!
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You DEFINITELY want to leave this on. There's no downside, only upside, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose, it's a no-brainer.
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Ummm... not trying to be an ass or anything, but I see a lot of posts like this on differnet forums, and it really doesn't tell me much of anything.
I'm assuming you're referring to the part of the discussion about the file split limit feature, but nothing is quoted or anything, so I have to guess at that.
Also, it really helps if when folks make a definitive statement like this, it's accompanied by some sort of technical explanation as to why it's such a good idea. Otherwise when folks get out and try different things, they don't really have a clear understanding as to why they're doing it; other than someone told them they should do it.
Again, thanks, but I see stuff like this all the time, and then I have to keep going back and forth asking more questions until I get it, and I bet there are a few other folks who experience the same thing. Thanks for any additional details you can offer!
You DEFINITELY want to leave this on. There's no downside, only upside, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose, it's a no-brainer.
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Well, as others have said in this thread already, the advantage is that you will have a complete recording vs. an incomplete recording. So unless you want to risk the file stopping at the file size limit and having nothing left of a recording beyond that point, I'd make sure you leave the splitting functionality on.