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Gear / Technical Help => Playback Forum => Topic started by: twatts (pants are so over-rated...) on May 22, 2008, 02:27:04 PM
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Right now I've got a B&K ST-140. One of the classics. Love this amp, got it for about $100 as it was "broken" on one channel. A $0.39 fuse later it was fixed and Lauren, my neighbor, felt ripped-off...
But now, I'm really curious about a Tube Stereo Amp.
Would you go Tube or stay SS? And why? Is it worth the expense? And what would you recommend in the $500 range.
Right now, I'm eying a Jolida, or getting an older Vintage reworked. My father told me he used to have a Bogen that was really nice. Of course that was before he went SS with his current stereo, a 35yo Sansui...
Is there anybody here that rebuilds Tube Amps???
Thanks,
Terry
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mmmm.... Tooob. Though it's tough for shows to get the watts you want for the $$ you wish to spend. Well I guess that depends on your listening habits. ;)
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to get the watts you want for the $$ you wish to spend.
Yeah, that's what holding me back. Is it worth it to go Tube for that much more money???
T
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Ya know it's all really about what you listen for, the tone that makes you happy, and the % of what you're listening to. There's little doubt that tubes will throw up a sound stage that is simply amazing for considerably less than their solid state compadres. They also offer a warm slightly viscous presentation, you know that "liquid" term that everyone likes to throw around. Some folks find this pleasing and involving while others consider it colored. What's hard to do with tube amplifiers at lower price points is present the bass as effectively as we would like in many cases. What's interesting to me though is that this is kind of the perspective we get with audience concert recordings anyway. As a whole most engineers don't tame this beast at the shows and we end up with this type of sound at the concerts we attend, especially the rock shows. For the bluegrass or orchestral recordings... not so much. So what is bothersome for the folks trying to get absolute resolution in the low end for studio works or more audiophile oriented recordings seems to be only a shade of a color for our two channel PA reproductions. The lines are being blurred a bit as folks change up technologies, introduce hybrids, start working with bit stream amplification etc... but this seems to be a general rule for the difference.
Personally... I love it, I haven't had the $$ to invest in the type of rig I would like simply because I enjoy listening at very loud levels, I've had to stay with bang/$$ solid state gear. To me it's like the difference between listening to George or Mikey... we know who the tube guy is there. ;D It's not that dramatic but you get the point. Is it OK to fuzzy the edges to get a feel that there's really no other way to produce. What I would really like to put together would be Source->Crossover->Mid-Highs to Tube and Low end to Separate solid state stereo amp. Take the best of both worlds.
As always in the end... YMMV, take a spin and see how your neurons behave. Pick up a nice piece of used gear that you know keeps it's resale value and stays a bit in demand, try it out, if you start smiling really big keep it, if not... offload it with little or no loss outside of shipping.
to get the watts you want for the $$ you wish to spend.
Yeah, that's what holding me back. Is it worth it to go Tube for that much more money???
T
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George or Mikey...
Who???
Thanks for the thoughts...
Terry
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George or Mikey...
Who???
>:( :yack:
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I'm going to throw out something a little twisted: why choose when you can have both?
Get something with EL34 goodness for the top, use your ST-140 on the bottom, then sit back and enjoy a bi-amped eargasm.
In your price range you can get a nice amp with enough power to mate with the B&K. You don't need as much power upstairs. I have 70W tube paired with 120W SS and they have similar gain structure so mate very well.
(assuming your speakers have the terminals for biamping)
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George or Mikey...
Who???
>:( :yack:
I figured out later... Sorry not into WSP...
T
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check out Dared's line.
ebay is a good source for research on them. agon for finding a used one.
always buy used !!
there were a couple pairs of vp20's on agon yesterday. under $600.
20w of monoblock..., which offers more current than a 20w "stereo" setup (typically).
they are real purdy too....
http://cgi.ebay.com/2007-New-Dared-MP-15-KT88-tube-SET-integrated-amp_W0QQitemZ140235173870QQihZ004QQcategoryZ3280QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
thats a good deal too !
also, depending on your speakers efficiency..., 20+ tube watts gets pretty darn loud.
there is also the "hybrid" approach...which i'm a fan of. this is a nice middle ground for when you can't buck up for 75+w of tube amplification.
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Another popular path that can have great results is to use a tube preamp for texture and boost these results cleanly with a solid state poweramp.
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Another popular path that can have great results is to use a tube preamp for texture and boost these results cleanly with a solid state poweramp.
Interesting...
Anybody have any experience with one of these: JOLIDA JD 102B
Thanks again for the advise!
Terry
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Another popular path that can have great results is to use a tube preamp for texture and boost these results cleanly with a solid state poweramp.
Interesting...
Anybody have any experience with one of these: JOLIDA JD 102B
Thanks again for the advise!
Terry
Yup, I have one. It was my first tube amp for my playback system (use tube guitar amps, though). It's a great little amp. I have pretty highly efficient speakers, and don't listen at too high of a volume, so the low wattage is not a problem for me.
In general, I'm listening with the volume control around 9 o'clock for studio recordings, maybe 11 o'clock for live recordings. The sound is sweet, as are most EL84 based amps in my opinion.
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mmmm.... Tooob. Though it's tough for shows to get the watts you want for the $$ you wish to spend. Well I guess that depends on your listening habits. ;)
not sure what you mean
my tube amp is 30wpc and it gets LOUD at 11am on the dial, I've never even pushed it past noon
all watts are not created equal :)
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I am going back to tubes in my home system. I don't feel there is anything that comes close to a tube system. There is such a huge soundstage & incredible presence with tubes that I have not been able to recreate with solid state. There are some decent choices for $500, sure there won't be much power but there is a real difference in tube watts vs. solid state watts. I say you go for it, worse comes to worse you can sell the amp & get something else. Experiment, have fun, thats what this hobby is supposed to be about anyway.
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I have a Hafler XL 600 with a Cary SLP98 tube pre - I def notice a difference from SS Adcom's I had before. I'd like to go all tube someday.
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I can only give you my personal experience, it can be a heated topic.
1) Tube is better
2) The tube sound, to me, mostly occurs in the high-power amplifier section.
That is a tube Pre will add a small bit of warmth, but a tube Pre and Power Amp is where my sweet spot is.
The aural hologram is from the small 3rd order THD and slight compression that the power amp delivers, from what I've tested.
Pres provide these, but usually in much lower doses.
Your mileage can vary and use your own ears!
Get to a good high-end shop and put in a few hours to see if the investment would be worth the difference in sound.
As a side-note, the ST-140 is about as "tubey" a solid-state amp as I've heard.
If you sell it, LMK, I'm thinking about upgrading the Rotel patio amp and tubes aren't an option there.
Lastly, implementation is not to be overlooked.
A poorly designed tube amp will not be better that a well-designed solid state one.
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mmmm.... Tooob. Though it's tough for shows to get the watts you want for the $$ you wish to spend. Well I guess that depends on your listening habits. ;)
not sure what you mean
my tube amp is 30wpc and it gets LOUD at 11am on the dial, I've never even pushed it past noon
all watts are not created equal :)
Hell, my Almarro integrated is 4.5 watts, and I rarely push it past noon! My speakers are pretty efficient, though.
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I like you SET guys, you brag about how few watts your amp has ;D
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I like you SET guys, you brag about how few watts your amp has ;D
Such rebels!
Zero to sixty in five miles....
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Most of the superiority of tube amps is described in vague and non-measurable terms. This has some great degree of overlap with the placebo effect. All the gushing and wonder over tube amps was also used on SS amps when they came out and replaced tubes. I am not a fan of retro. I grew up with tubes and records. I use neither now. The "tube sound" is merely a form of euphonious distortion. I prefer accuracy. As usual, YMMV.
I have a hafler XL-280 for my mix monitors and two hafler 500 amps mono-bridged to crank out ~1200 watts each. The sound is clean, clear and quite nice. The mono bridged amps drive a pair of SoundLab Pristines. Trust me, the sound is very good. Good enough that I stopped shopping for amps and speakers. 8)
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I don't think anyone believes that tubes are more accurate, it's quite clear that they have greater measurable harmonic distortion and if anything exaggerate the soundstage. It really more about what you find to be more pleasing. Lush, warm, visceral, all in some sense "muddy up" the works but the effect can be enjoyable. There's a balance to be had. There are many devices that claim to be uber-accurate that end up sounding sterile and hard, the accuracy is all good and well but sometime too much accuracy tends towards a less "musical" presentation. Synergy comes into play as well depending on your favorite transducers, in our particular case this applies on both ends; encoding (mic) and decoding (speaker).
Most of the superiority of tube amps is described in vague and non-measurable terms. This has some great degree of overlap with the placebo effect. All the gushing and wonder over tube amps was also used on SS amps when they came out and replaced tubes. I am not a fan of retro. I grew up with tubes and records. I use neither now. The "tube sound" is merely a form of euphonious distortion. I prefer accuracy. As usual, YMMV.
I have a hafler XL-280 for my mix monitors and two hafler 500 amps mono-bridged to crank out ~1200 watts each. The sound is clean, clear and quite nice. The mono bridged amps drive a pair of SoundLab Pristines. Trust me, the sound is very good. Good enough that I stopped shopping for amps and speakers. 8)
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it's just music, who cares if it's clinically accurate? It's about finding a sound that is right for your own ears which is an incredibly subjective decision. Ultimately the idea is to enjoy the music. If you enjoy music more with harmonic distortions so be it. if you enjoy music more with dead-on accuracy so be it.
Who cares about measurements? They can't tell you how a particular piece of gear sounds, only your ears can. The only question that matters is "does it sound good?" If your answer is yes then congratulations, regardless of what your gear is.
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the reality of it all is depressing.
a $50 "Sonic Impact" class D amp and some efficient speakers probably would put the same smile on my face as the gear I use now.